[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:08 pm
https://www.essentiallysports.com/f1-ne ... -2021/amp/

Snatch him up.

As far as the power unit is concerned if every power unit manufacturer has a competitive power unit for 2021, freezing them save for reliability and cost savings, or for convergence like the old V8's would be acceptable.
Why should we if Honda still plans on leaving?

I say Honda stays or no deal.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Honda is leaving, but they don't intend to leave RB high and dry. They plan to develop all through next year, and may even leave them with something for 2022.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Honda is leaving, but they don't intend to leave RB high and dry. They plan to develop all through next year, and may even leave them with something for 2022.
Should Honda deliver a number of engines to SAT and RBR by 2022, who should maintain and repair them, and sort out and fix the issues when all the qualified Honda personnel are back in Japan?

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:38 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Honda is leaving, but they don't intend to leave RB high and dry. They plan to develop all through next year, and may even leave them with something for 2022.
Should Honda deliver a number of engines to SAT and RBR by 2022, who should maintain and repair them, and sort out and fix the issues when all the qualified Honda personnel are back in Japan?
How do you repair these engines? Mechanically the ICEs are sealed and designed to last 7 races. The mechanics already handle the transmission and engine installation. What maintenance do you mean? The power unit itself is sealed, if you have a hydraulic or pneumatic issue, I'm sure Red Bull can solve it. Red Bull isn't incompetent, they build their transmission and all the associated hydraulics. What they cannot do is develop an engine because they don't have foundries, and the tooling necessary to build ICE components. They can't develop 15 different ICE configurations in tandem.

What they can do is run the power unit, monitor things, work out the ERS strategies. With frozen engines they don't have to worry about designing new pistons, new piston rings, new crank, new intake and exhaust ports, or combustion chambers. They won't have to worry about improving the MGU-H or redesigning the turbo to work with each combustion concept. They won't have to worry about manufacturing and testing, and remanufacturing, and re-testing, and follow other unconventional avenues that may not yield anything in the short term, but cost a boat load of money to pursue.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

SmallSoldier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Big Tea wrote:
diffuser wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:01 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:10 pm
Pretty sure Ferrari are running the same PU they started the year with. They've looked better in power limited tracks of late. I think there is a 50% chance they will have caught up by the beginning of 2022. Nobody has been able to catch Merc in 7 years why do you think Ferrari will be after throwing away 2 years of development?
I would doubt Ferrari had only the one ' marginally legal' engine under development this year. The had to realise there was a good chance of being caught. Even if the engine was in a running state it would probably be on the machine.

It has taken longer than I thought to come through already. Then again, looking at LeClerc maybe the engine is not that far off, especially when you consider the car was designed around the expected performance this year.

I would be surprised if Ferrari are not 'thereabouts' by mid season next year at the latest. As I said though, if Merc are in this with them, they will move much of their effort to the new engine, knowing they have a buffer in place.
If no one agrees to the freeze, then probably Merc will put more into developing this engine, so even more of an effort needed for Ferari.

Also, how embarrassing would it be to them if Haas took up Renault and had good results?
I don’t think Renault will support the freeze either... They will be introducing a new engine concept next year (which could be delayed to 2022) and they will want to use as much time as they can to extract the maximum out of the new concept... Ferrari won’t stop development either and will try to improve their PU until the last minute.

Mercedes might be the only one that could agree to the earlier freeze and that’s only because they have still an advantage over the other two manufacturers.

But, Red Bull has shared responsibility with their current situation... Yes, the pandemic has hit the manufacturers and that is beyond anyone’s control, but just as Honda made promises in regards to performance, I’m sure that Red Bull also made commitments in regards to the chassis performance and they have not hit their targets.

If Red Bull leaves because the rules aren’t changed for them, it will be sad for the sport, but by no means it will the end of it... Red Bull has at least one clear option for an engine if they don’t want to use it because it will be embarrassing to go back to Renault after all the trash talk during the end of their stint working with them, that’s on them not Formula 1.


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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:49 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:38 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:21 pm
Honda is leaving, but they don't intend to leave RB high and dry. They plan to develop all through next year, and may even leave them with something for 2022.
Should Honda deliver a number of engines to SAT and RBR by 2022, who should maintain and repair them, and sort out and fix the issues when all the qualified Honda personnel are back in Japan?
How do you repair these engines? Mechanically the ICEs are sealed and designed to last 7 races. The mechanics already handle the transmission and engine installation. What maintenance do you mean? The power unit itself is sealed, if you have a hydraulic or pneumatic issue, I'm sure Red Bull can solve it. Red Bull isn't incompetent, they build their transmission and all the associated hydraulics. What they cannot do is develop an engine because they don't have foundries, and the tooling necessary to build ICE components. They can't develop 15 different ICE configurations in tandem.

What they can do is run the power unit, monitor things, work out the ERS strategies. With frozen engines they don't have to worry about designing new pistons, new piston rings, new crank, new intake and exhaust ports, or combustion chambers. They won't have to worry about improving the MGU-H or redesigning the turbo to work with each combustion concept. They won't have to worry about manufacturing and testing, and remanufacturing, and re-testing, and follow other unconventional avenues that may not yield anything in the short term, but cost a boat load of money to pursue.
When Max last dropped out, the people at Honda spent more than a week trying to find the cause. Do you think if something like this happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down? I don't think they can.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:12 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:49 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:38 pm


Should Honda deliver a number of engines to SAT and RBR by 2022, who should maintain and repair them, and sort out and fix the issues when all the qualified Honda personnel are back in Japan?
How do you repair these engines? Mechanically the ICEs are sealed and designed to last 7 races. The mechanics already handle the transmission and engine installation. What maintenance do you mean? The power unit itself is sealed, if you have a hydraulic or pneumatic issue, I'm sure Red Bull can solve it. Red Bull isn't incompetent, they build their transmission and all the associated hydraulics. What they cannot do is develop an engine because they don't have foundries, and the tooling necessary to build ICE components. They can't develop 15 different ICE configurations in tandem.

What they can do is run the power unit, monitor things, work out the ERS strategies. With frozen engines they don't have to worry about designing new pistons, new piston rings, new crank, new intake and exhaust ports, or combustion chambers. They won't have to worry about improving the MGU-H or redesigning the turbo to work with each combustion concept. They won't have to worry about manufacturing and testing, and remanufacturing, and re-testing, and follow other unconventional avenues that may not yield anything in the short term, but cost a boat load of money to pursue.
When Max last dropped out, the people at Honda spent more than a week trying to find the cause. Do you think if something like this happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down? I don't think they can.
They spent a week and you know how they fixed the issue? New wiring harness. The issue was never "solved" by Honda, in the sense that they identified the cause and corrected it. They just didn't have time between Italy and Mugello to change the parts. The fix was, like it is in modern cars, just change the damn thing instead of trying to fix what is a complex issue through miles of cables. If you're going to go through the trouble of stripping the chassis down to go through the entire wiring harness to find a short to ground, or open wire, you might as well just put in a brand new component instead of trying to track down the fault and repair it.

Did the team have time to do that between Monza and Mugello? No, as soon as they packed up the cars they were shipped off to Mugello, the two weeks between Mugello and Sochi allowed them time to replace things.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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saviour stivala
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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The formula one power unit is a ‘sealed thing’ only from when it is pushed into the car for its first race weekend. The possibility of RB being given the right to build the engine by Honda, maintain, adjust/calibrate means that parts that make-up the power unit will have to still be manufactured, so the question is, manufactured by whom?. All this is apart from the need to keep developing it. Unless a development freeze is imposed. In my opinion those advocating for TR and RB to still using the Honda power unit after Honda set date of dropping out is nothing more than just wishful thinking.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:16 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:12 pm
When Max last dropped out, the people at Honda spent more than a week trying to find the cause.
Do you think if something like this happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down? I don't think they can.
.
They spent a week and you know how they fixed the issue? New wiring harness. The issue was never "solved" by Honda, in the sense that they identified the cause and corrected it. They just didn't have time between Italy and Mugello to change the parts. The fix was, like it is in modern cars, just change the damn thing instead of trying to fix what is a complex issue through miles of cables. If you're going to go through the trouble of stripping the chassis down to go through the entire wiring harness to find a short to ground, or open wire, you might as well just put in a brand new component instead of trying to track down the fault and repair it.

Did the team have time to do that between Monza and Mugello? No, as soon as they packed up the cars they were shipped off to Mugello, the two weeks between Mugello and Sochi allowed them time to replace things.
I wrote "more than a week" because I was talking about the two weeks between Mugello and Sochi.
So again: Do you think if something like this in Mugello happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down?
I don't think they can.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:40 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:16 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:12 pm
When Max last dropped out, the people at Honda spent more than a week trying to find the cause.
Do you think if something like this happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down? I don't think they can.
.
They spent a week and you know how they fixed the issue? New wiring harness. The issue was never "solved" by Honda, in the sense that they identified the cause and corrected it. They just didn't have time between Italy and Mugello to change the parts. The fix was, like it is in modern cars, just change the damn thing instead of trying to fix what is a complex issue through miles of cables. If you're going to go through the trouble of stripping the chassis down to go through the entire wiring harness to find a short to ground, or open wire, you might as well just put in a brand new component instead of trying to track down the fault and repair it.

Did the team have time to do that between Monza and Mugello? No, as soon as they packed up the cars they were shipped off to Mugello, the two weeks between Mugello and Sochi allowed them time to replace things.
I wrote "more than a week" because I was talking about the two weeks between Mugello and Sochi.
So again: Do you think if something like this in Mugello happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down?
I don't think they can.
Honda couldn't either, it isn't a technical issue, it is a part issue. Would Red Bull try to diagnose the issue and attempt a fix, or replace the component and go from there? That is not for me to answer. I don't know the logistics of the situation which would alter the outcome so I cannot comment, neither do you.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:40 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:16 pm

.
They spent a week and you know how they fixed the issue? New wiring harness. The issue was never "solved" by Honda, in the sense that they identified the cause and corrected it. They just didn't have time between Italy and Mugello to change the parts. The fix was, like it is in modern cars, just change the damn thing instead of trying to fix what is a complex issue through miles of cables. If you're going to go through the trouble of stripping the chassis down to go through the entire wiring harness to find a short to ground, or open wire, you might as well just put in a brand new component instead of trying to track down the fault and repair it.

Did the team have time to do that between Monza and Mugello? No, as soon as they packed up the cars they were shipped off to Mugello, the two weeks between Mugello and Sochi allowed them time to replace things.
I wrote "more than a week" because I was talking about the two weeks between Mugello and Sochi.
So again: Do you think if something like this in Mugello happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down?
I don't think they can.

Honda couldn't either, it isn't a technical issue, it is a part issue. Would Red Bull try to diagnose the issue and attempt a fix, or replace the component and go from there? That is not for me to answer. I don't know the logistics of the situation which would alter the outcome so I cannot comment, neither do you.
Honda couldn't either, it isn't a technical issue, it is a part issue. . #-o

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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They attempted to fix the issue in a technical sense and could not do it. It is a moot point because neither team could fix it from a technical point.

When Max binned it on the reconnaissance lap in Hungary, that was a technical fix.

Honda couldn't resolve the issue and opted for new components. They did not repair the issue, credit to Honda for producing the components which have since been perfectly reliable.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:40 pm
Do you think if something like this in Mugello happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down?
I don't think they can.
.
Honda couldn't either, it isn't a technical issue, it is a part issue.
.
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:38 pm
They attempted to fix the issue in a technical sense and could not do it. It is a moot point because neither team could fix it from a technical point.

When Max binned it on the reconnaissance lap in Hungary, that was a technical fix.

Honda couldn't resolve the issue and opted for new components. They did not repair the issue, credit to Honda for producing the components which have since been perfectly reliable.

24-09-2020 From the Honda Racing F1 site:
TOYOHARU TANABE
TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, HONDA F1

After the last triple header, we now start a period of races with the more usual two week break in between.
Using the time since Mugello, our priority has been to carefully analyse the reason for Max’s retirement in that race.
Our investigation revealed that several factors caused the problem and we have been able to apply countermeasures to deal with each of these, with the aim of ensuring the fault does not happen again.

As part of its original plan, Honda will introduce some final new power unit elements for drivers this weekend, with this being the final change before the end of the season.

The move to the third power units is not related to any of the problems that emerged at Mugello.


* So you claim that Honda could not find the causes, couldn't resolve the issue and opted for new components. and therefore put in new engines, whereby the parts worked well.
* Tanabe says they found the causes, "several factors caused the problem," and took steps to stop it happening again.

Well, that Tanabe is quite a liar if I take your claim as the truth.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:26 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Wouter wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:40 pm
Do you think if something like this in Mugello happens again during a race, that RBR's own people can track it down?
I don't think they can.
.
Honda couldn't either, it isn't a technical issue, it is a part issue.
.
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:38 pm
They attempted to fix the issue in a technical sense and could not do it. It is a moot point because neither team could fix it from a technical point.

When Max binned it on the reconnaissance lap in Hungary, that was a technical fix.

Honda couldn't resolve the issue and opted for new components. They did not repair the issue, credit to Honda for producing the components which have since been perfectly reliable.

24-09-2020 From the Honda Racing F1 site:
TOYOHARU TANABE
TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, HONDA F1

After the last triple header, we now start a period of races with the more usual two week break in between.
Using the time since Mugello, our priority has been to carefully analyse the reason for Max’s retirement in that race.
Our investigation revealed that several factors caused the problem and we have been able to apply countermeasures to deal with each of these, with the aim of ensuring the fault does not happen again.

As part of its original plan, Honda will introduce some final new power unit elements for drivers this weekend, with this being the final change before the end of the season.

The move to the third power units is not related to any of the problems that emerged at Mugello.


* So you claim that Honda could not find the causes, couldn't resolve the issue and opted for new components. and therefore put in new engines, whereby the parts worked well.
* Tanabe says they found the causes, "several factors caused the problem," and took steps to stop it happening again.

Well, that Tanabe is quite a liar if I take your claim as the truth.
=D> =D>
Last edited by tangodjango on Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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