Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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Racer X wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:48 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 11:25 pm
Perez is more rounded and effective and thus compliments a speedster like Hamilton.
Yeah Perez is an amazing racer...
But team bosses are scared of having two aces in one team.

MOST team's historically have been more comfortable having one Beta and one Alfa male.
Or a Beta who thinks hes an Alfa (pseudo Alfa) like Bottas or Mark Webber.

Which is why i think they will keep Albon at RedBull...
I guess by my own logic Hulkenberg is more qualified because hes underqualified.
Its almost like being mediocre works to the advantage for Hulk and Bottas against Perez.
So sad ill miss Perez.
If you go by my above model Perez should live in Harmony with Hamilton (as Button did) because he will qualify behind the majority kf the time. He will accept he is slower and must try to win on race pace and strategy. Not a problem as long as he gets a fair strategy.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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LHamilton wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:05 pm
I dont buy this narrative that Perez is far superior to Hulkenberg.
Perez won in their years together and qualifying gap was in favour of Hulkenburg so that makes Perez look even better. Lets not even mention the podiums! There is no argument of which is the better package.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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FrukostScones
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:15 pm
LHamilton wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:05 pm
I dont buy this narrative that Perez is far superior to Hulkenberg.
Perez won in their years together and qualifying gap was in favour of Hulkenburg so that makes Perez look even better. Lets not even mention the podiums! There is no argument of which is the better package.
LOL
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:15 pm
LHamilton wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:05 pm
I dont buy this narrative that Perez is far superior to Hulkenberg.
Perez won in their years together and qualifying gap was in favour of Hulkenburg so that makes Perez look even better. Lets not even mention the podiums! There is no argument of which is the better package.
Obviously there are, since I gave a few reasons and there are more. But you act like a child when you give your arguments, cover your ears and sing "la-la-la, can't hear you!" to make sure there are no counter arguments to be heard.

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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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I had initially felt the difference between the 2 was slight....so I did a bit of red neck calculations. Each has had 9-full years in F1 (I am not incorporating any 2020 data). The Hulk's average WDC finish was 10.4. Perez's average WDC finish has been 9.7.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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LHamilton wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:13 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:15 pm
LHamilton wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:05 pm
I dont buy this narrative that Perez is far superior to Hulkenberg.
Perez won in their years together and qualifying gap was in favour of Hulkenburg so that makes Perez look even better. Lets not even mention the podiums! There is no argument of which is the better package.
Obviously there are, since I gave a few reasons and there are more. But you act like a child when you give your arguments, cover your ears and sing "la-la-la, can't hear you!" to make sure there are no counter arguments to be heard.
You argument had many flaws.
You clearly stated that Hulk is mistake prone, then gave reasons why he makes up for it, starting with Perez's DNF rate. You should have explained the reasons for those DNFs.

Second one. You said Hulk has a higher high than Perez. This is not possible because Hulk has finished no higher than fourth. (he crashed out the few times he had one foot on the podium) you could argue Hulk has lower Lows!

I support Hulkendburg since he entered the sport and I rate his speed. However, I identified he has a weakness of not reading the race well, not preserving his tyres as well and simply choking in the big moments. I believe he had years to get over that hump, but simply hasn't. In a fast car, yeah he may get more chances to score podiums and wins. But still, at this stage Perez has more credibility in this regard.

LHamilton
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:16 pm
LHamilton wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:13 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:15 pm


Perez won in their years together and qualifying gap was in favour of Hulkenburg so that makes Perez look even better. Lets not even mention the podiums! There is no argument of which is the better package.
Obviously there are, since I gave a few reasons and there are more. But you act like a child when you give your arguments, cover your ears and sing "la-la-la, can't hear you!" to make sure there are no counter arguments to be heard.
You argument had many flaws.
You clearly stated that Hulk is mistake prone, then gave reasons why he makes up for it, starting with Perez's DNF rate. You should have explained the reasons for those DNFs.

Second one. You said Hulk has a higher high than Perez. This is not possible because Hulk has finished no higher than fourth. (he crashed out the few times he had one foot on the podium) you could argue Hulk has lower Lows!

I support Hulkendburg since he entered the sport and I rate his speed. However, I identified he has a weakness of not reading the race well, not preserving his tyres as well and simply choking in the big moments. I believe he had years to get over that hump, but simply hasn't. In a fast car, yeah he may get more chances to score podiums and wins. But still, at this stage Perez has more credibility in this regard.
If you think my arguments has flaws when I'm being presented by statements such as "more points, more podiums, thats it!", then you have very little coming. At least I'm trying to portray an objective reality. Let's see what flaws I had.

In regards to "Hulk makes up for being mistake prone", I'd like you to show me where I point to that. I simply laid out the facts that Perez has far less DNFs than the average driver, let alone the midfield once. Together with the facts that Hulk is prone to make mistakes. Those were two seperate statement with no correlation. I don't see how you made the conclusion that Hulkenberg makes up for his DNFs. Do you want me to be very specific in, where he does mistakes, misses podiums or what? I just don't get what you're asking for. But I've gone through some DNFs from their spell together. They are to be find lower down the text.

When you point to Perez having "higher high" than Hulkenberg because he has podiums, you're showing you don't get the concept of an abstract term. Just because you objectify something (making something concrete), doesn't mean that the abstract potential is higher. So on that point you're just plain wrong. But if you wish me to show some scenarios of these objectifications then here are a few of Perez's podiums which has come as a result of Hulkenbergs mishaps/misfortunes;

Monza 2012: Hulk stopped his Force India on track in Q1 and couldn't partake in the qualifying session. His teammate, Paul Di Resta, qualified 4th.

Bahrain 2014: Two mistakes, 1 in qualifying which saw him qualify 12th; another in the race.
Russia 2014: Hulk & Perez qualified 6th/7th respectively - Hulk spun turn 2.
Baku 2016: Mistake in Q2 which was him qualify 12th. Was otherwise there with Perez.
Monaco 2016: Should've been a Hulk podium if it wasn't for strategy.

Baku 2018: Hulk crashed out in 5th place.

And you also expect me to do in depth research on every DNF Hulkenberg has had when you can't be bothered to take into consideration DNFs themselves as a whole? Why am I suppose to do the 'dirty work' where as you are allowed to spew out statements without any context do them? The double standards on you, mate. :D

I can give you the DNFs during their time together;

Perez;
Malaysia 2014: Gearbox, didnt start
Monaco 2014: Perez fault i'd say, similar to an incident to Hulkenberg/Massa in Singapore 2015
Canada 2014: Perez/Massa collision. I'd say Massas fault.
Hungary 2014: Crashed into the wall on the start/finish-straight
USA 2014: Crashed into the Ferrari, which punted him slightly right and took out both himself and Sutil.
Hungary 2015: Brakes
Austria 2016: Brakes

Hulkenberg;
Hungary 2014; Crashed into Perez, DNFd. Hulks fault.
USA 2014; Engine.
China 2015; Gearbox.
Hungary 2015; Frontwing broke and was trapped below him on the start/finish-straight, sending him into the barrier in the process.
Belgium 2015: Power unit problem. Didnt start.
Singapore 2015: Collided with Massa when Massa came out of the pits. Hulks fault.
Russia 2015: Spun on his own, got crashed into in the process since the spun left him blocking some race space.
USA 2015: Crashed into Ricciardo. Hulks fault.
USA 2016: Crashed into by Gutierrez on the start.
Spain 2016: Oil leak.
Austria 2016: Brakes
Singapore 2016: Crashed out on the start. 3-4 cars squeezed eachother with Hulkenberg coming out with a DNF. Racing incident I'd say.
USA 2016: Hard to see on youtube, but it looks like Hulk gets a bit of an oversteer moment with two cars close to him. Hits first the Ferrari and then pendulums him into a Williams. First corner type of incident, but I'm leaning on Hulks fault.

13-7 in DNFs in Hulks "favour" (two DNS, one for each driver.)

In my estimation;

Perez; Of the 7, 3 were his own fault, 4 wasn't. Roughly 42,8% of the incidents were Perez's fault.
Hulkenberg: out of the 13, 4 were his own, 9 wasn't. Roughly 30,7% of the incidents were Hulk's fault.

I get it when people shout metrics without context to them. Because then it makes it seem like the other driver (who lost) had no business of winning and was nowhere close to the winning person. Leading a race and having a mechincal fault in the last corner is treated the same as someone who's lapping 5 seconds of the pace dead last. But, who's counting, hey? Both persons had equal chance of points and podiums!

That last paragraph had a spice of sarcasm within it, if you didn't notice.

Regarding your last paragraph, I agree with some of the things being said. "Reading the race" is to abstract for me. I would argue that Hulkenberg is worse in the midfield and lacks a bit of aggression to pass people on a regular basis. I would likened Hulkenberg to Raikkonen in how they go on about their driving. Both very fair, sometimes to fair. Lacks that ruthlessness to some regard. Perez does have more of that aggression, which would see him suit better in the midfield than Hulkenberg. I would like to see Hulkenberg in a front running car, because he has shown that he is capable of winning races and titles in his junior career. And I would argue there is less aggression needed up front since there are less cars than in the midfield, generally.

Perserving his tyres? To some degree yes. But your are also comparing Hulk to the "tyre whisperer" in Perez. In terms of perserving tyres, he is probably the best in the field on that. Hulkenberg is definitely harder on the tyres than Perez. But harder on them than the average driver? I don't know, frankly. I can't recall people putting that kind of a label on him though.

Choking in the big moments? Again, to some degree yes. But to be fair, there has only been two scenarios where he has "choked" when he's been close to a podium. Brazil 2012 and Germany 2019. And both of these were wet. Brazil 2012 he was running with slicks on a partial damp track, and Germany 2019 saw drivers whom most people deem better than Hulkenberg, in better cars, also either crashed out, or make a mistake. Two of them being Hamilton and Leclerc.

You have then Baku 17', 18' and Russia 15' when podium looked good. However, the race was still a long way of and the best position he was before crashing was 5th. I don't think being 5th is a 'big moment'. Maybe. I think it's more hindsight than anything else. Those kinds of DNFs looks worse because he had a chance of a podium if he kept running. But noone were to know, during the race itself, how things would pan out. In Baku 17' for instance, the top three were Hamilton, Vettel & Ricciardo when Hulk retired from 6th, being some 4 seconds of a podium after some laps due to saftey car restart. Baku 18' the top three were Vettel, Hamilton & Bottas, with Hulkenberg being 10 seconds of the podium when he retired from 5th. Could you honestly say that in those moments, that it looked great for a podium for him? In either of those two races, the three cars who at that moment occupied the podium positions, were also the top three cars in the constructurs. It's only afterwards, when people know the incidents, whom finished on the podium, where they were in the race at one point, when they make the these kinds of calls. So I would call it a bit harsh.

Perez definitely have more credibility to him having podiums. Which is the biggest factor as to why I thought he stood/stands ahead of Hulkenberg if Red Bull comes calling.

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Gerhardsa
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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At the end of the day, we simply wont know until it is announced. What we do know is that the media reports that Max want Hulk in the car next to him, and I am pretty sure the team would want a certain amount of harmony between the drivers. Perez will start ruffling feathers and complain if he feels Max is getting preferred treatment in terms of strategy, race position fights etc compared to him. I'd be surprised if he gets the nod over Hulk at RBR next season (IF they decide to let Albon go)

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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I dont see Perez as a complaining bitchy type. Didn't complain in McLaren, force india or RP. Quite humble guy. He is mature enough to know what he is at RedBull for. (to support Max).

That said yeah definitely Hulk does stand a better chance if you look at the whole team harmony thing. Goes to show the power that Max has in the team.
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ringo
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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LHamilton wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:04 am

Perez; Of the 7, 3 were his own fault, 4 wasn't. Roughly 42,8% of the incidents were Perez's fault.
Hulkenberg: out of the 13, 4 were his own, 9 wasn't. Roughly 30,7% of the incidents were Hulk's fault.
The thing with that % of looking at who was at fault. Perez still has overall better race finishing because he keep his nose clean. Hulk tends to be in avoidable incidents; even when it's not his fault. Sometimes it can be from simply being too slow on the track, be it because or worn tyres, or it can be from defending awakwardly, or miscommunication. There are drivers who simply avoid those awkward moments.
Perez being more on the offensive is actually a good thing. It shows when he is driving around he is keeping his nose clean, by either being fast enough to not encounter anybody, or just simply choosing his battles wisely and racing strategically. I am saying this to say Perez is a more intelligent driver than Hulk.
I don't dislike hulk, i was a fan, but he is frustrating to watch sometimes. He always had promise but just doesn't seem able to manage a race like a Perez or Sainz or Hamilton.

I would like to see Hulkenberg in a front running car, because he has shown that he is capable of winning races and titles in his junior career. And I would argue there is less aggression needed up front since there are less cars than in the midfield, generally.
Basically you want him in a fast car to hide his deficiencies? :mrgreen:
I think Hulk may be similar to Bottas, he wont get a handle on the tyres, and he will still be making errors in Q3 and in the race. The odd crash here or there. But he wont be a podium machine like a Perez.

Perez definitely have more credibility to him having podiums. Which is the biggest factor as to why I thought he stood/stands ahead of Hulkenberg if Red Bull comes calling.
I think this is what matters. Both have had a long enough career in various cars. One has outstanding performances in each car he has driven. The other has shown flashes of brilliance but never really consistently showing brilliance over the whole weekend. I like Hulk, but i think something is missing. Maybe attention span or passion or the drive.
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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So Hulk Perez yeah yeah it's 55/45 depending on who looks at it Perez or Hulk is better.

How about we say:

They are 50/50

Now the question is. Will RedBull take a show on one of them?
I just home one of them gets a chance.

Even tho I still don't think RedBull has the ball to get rid of Albon just because of Albons Nationality. Even if it turns out he's not actually good enough for the job.
SENNA

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Big Tea
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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Racer X wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:27 pm
So Hulk Perez yeah yeah it's 55/45 depending on who looks at it Perez or Hulk is better.

How about we say:

They are 50/50

Now the question is. Will RedBull take a show on one of them?
I just home one of them gets a chance.

Even tho I still don't think RedBull has the ball to get rid of Albon just because of Albons Nationality. Even if it turns out he's not actually good enough for the job.
Red Bul are in a funny place. Max alone is doing enough to keep them in place, but a good number 2 would probably still not get them to the top. They will be looking at it differently to us.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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A good number 2 with reliable car should be on the same points as or close to Max considering his DNFs. Keep in mind, fourth to third is only three points difference!
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Big Tea
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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:30 pm
A good number 2 with reliable car should be on the same points as or close to Max considering his DNFs. Keep in mind, fourth to third is only three points difference!
With the way they work it out with column A through to Z plus extras, plus 'costs' per point, It is almost impossible to work out what a point is worth to a f1 team. I would think though that a pay driver or driver bringing a substantial bonus would be far more beneficial to a team like Red Bull than a few extra podium throughout the year.

As I said though, it is impossible to work out how much is gained or lost so If I were running the team, I think I would probably take cash in hand ( or cash in kind with RBR ) over the end of year carve up.

Were they fighting for a position +or - 2, it may be a different balance.

Then again, I know nothing about the grey waters of F1, so may have the wrong opinion.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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Re: Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:30 pm
A good number 2 with reliable car should be on the same points as or close to Max considering his DNFs. Keep in mind, fourth to third is only three points difference!
If the RedBull was reliable, Verstappen would have more points. Except for the last race, he either DNF-ed trough a technical fault or was on the podium.