2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Mogster wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:08 pm
Lacking a bit of race pace means team orders normally aren’t an issue, Merc can legitimately prioritise Hamilton in the race and he can do his thing unmolested while Bottas falls naturally into position as rear gunner. The situation is absolutely perfect for Mercedes.
All very interesting but isn't supported by the facts. The inconvenient facts like they let Bottas win races and that they give Bottas priority treatment on the occasions that he is leading the race. These facts are what makes Hamilton do things like run longer on tyres than the team want him to in order to get the lead. He is forced to try strategies on the fly precisely because he doesn't get prioritised over Bottas.

If Mercedes were prioritising Hamilton, they'd have made Bottas let him through in Austria to nullify the time penalty Hamilton received from the Albon incident. Instead, Bottas was allowed to win and Hamilton left to lose points.

The simple fact is that Hamilton doesn't need Mercedes to give him special treatment.
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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:42 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:03 pm
As for Ferrari, I don’t think they’re interested in a driver who called them cheaters.
I don't really agree - any team would snap up Max given the chance. Ferrari are pragmatic enough to put such comments behind. I do however think that sooner or later Max will end up at Mercedes.
oT v1 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:25 pm
I admit I felt the same way about Webber when Seb was stomping everyone in the RBR, wishing someone would put up a fight, but it’s the right set up for the constructor.
Webber wasn't too bad for a number 2 :)
https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/12/13 ... r-old-boy/
As for Verstappen, Camilleri is still furious with the Dutchman after he accused Ferrari of “cheating” with its 2019 engine, and told guests on the day, “There is no place here for those who say these things.

He also preferred not to elaborate, “Silence is sometimes the strongest weapon. We are Ferrari. Why give credibility to a 22-year-old boy?

“His words created all sorts of problems for the team. Mattia told me we had FIA inspectors everywhere because of it,” added Camilleri of Verstappen who is out of contract at Red Bull after 2020.
I don't think Ferrari would take Max for as long as Camilleri is there. Corporate figure heads are too egoistic to take such stupidity from a prospective employee, no matter how talented he is. Besides, they already have Leclerc, who is almost as good as Max.

Most likely, Mercedes would sign Russell for 2022. If he does what Leclerc did in Ferrari, then Mercedes door would be closed too. That's the problem of not getting in to right place at right time. But there can always be surprising turn of tides and one would never know which team might surprise and rise to dominate.
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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Phil wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:10 am
Driving in wet conditions is a matter of confidence. Confidence in yourself and in the car. Bottas had neither during the race, perhaps as a result of the first spin, lack of heat in the tires or a culmination of both. To hit on him because he span that many times is doing an injustice to him and what how he has performed throughout the season. He may be no wet weather master, nor does he need to be. Rosberg wasnt either, btw.

Sometimes, events compound each other. And in the end, Bottas is the only driver who is being measured against Hamilton in equal machinery. None of the others are.
Rosberg knew he wasn't a master and some people might think that was his weakness but it was his strength. That drive in Brazil 2016 which Verstappen is treated like Jesus for was actually Rosberg's best drive of his career in my opinion. The pressure of that championship (knowing he will never have another) and the way he kept it on the island and finished second was commendable.

The Bottas/Rosberg comparisons are just mostly in my opinion Hamilton fans trying to glorify Hamilton. Hamilton doesn't need it. Bottas is a beta to a Barrichello basically. The whole world knew before a grand prix or season started that Barrichello had no chance against Schu. Same with Bottas who is worse. I don't think you can ever say that about Rosberg. And let's put aside the Hamilton and Bottas comparison. Even in his Williams days, Massa was always there or there about for most of the time and we are talking about a guy who was never the same after his accident in 2009.

Bottas and Barrichello are/were simply there for all those years winning the odd race/pole because it suited the larger pictures of Ferrari/Mercedes. The moment Mercedes don't win a WCC he will get the boot.

And let's just say that he had a bad day. I will name you 5 other races just this year where there's always a lame excuse to his lack of talent. Can't remember which race it was where Hamilton was royally thumping his happiness and this guy wanted a SC. He got that and got thrashed again.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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I dont think any of the Hamilton fans are saying Bottas is better than Rosberg ?! But I think nearly all the forum would disagree that Bottas is the worst drive on the grid! thats absolute garbage!
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:09 am
I dont think any of the Hamilton fans are saying Bottas is better than Rosberg ?! But I think nearly all the forum would disagree that Bottas is the worst drive on the grid! thats absolute garbage!
Exactly. =D>
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tangodjango
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:09 am
I dont think any of the Hamilton fans are saying Bottas is better than Rosberg ?! But I think nearly all the forum would disagree that Bottas is the worst drive on the grid! thats absolute garbage!
Just don't engage. Let them drone on about whatever they want.
Last edited by tangodjango on Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phil
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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It’s hard to compare Rosberg and Bottas. Rosberg performance was somewhat masked a bit by the circumstance that the car from 2014-2016 was more dominant. He could qualify some 4 tenths off the pace and still retain the first row comfortably.

Bottas never had that luxury, at least not until this year (and this year, during races, the RedBull is closer than any competitor was during 14-16). 2017 and 2018 were both years where a Ferrari was leading the championship over prolonged periods. In 2019, they even had a winning and pole setting streak, which demonstrates how close the race was. When faced with such a situation - a team like Mercedes focuses their strategic decisions differently. In 2014-2016 they were happy to let their drivers fight it out, even using different strategies (Bahrain 2014). When Bottas arrived, they didnt, as they were focusing on getting wins, even if sometimes to the detriment of their driver (mostly Bottas who got used because he was behind and then was left out as a strategic pawn against the Ferraris). These events hurt his stats.

Also, one can not discount the fact that Hamilton has sognificantly grown as a driver since 2016. He shows up at every race and has had pretty much zero off days, which frequently happened during his team up with Rosberg.

All in all, i still think Rosberg was the fiercer competitor. Was he quicker? Maybe. Maybe through his fiercer conpetitiveness. Pure speed however.... i dont think they’d be that far off each other.

Considering the job Hamilton is doing, i dont think Bottas is doing that bad. He is certainly doing better at challenging Hamilton, than Albon is Max, or Vettel is Leclerc. From the top 3 big teams, it’s the closest pairing by far. Considering the possibility that Hamilton is the strongest of them all, that says quite a bit IMO.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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Phil wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:06 am
It’s hard to compare Rosberg and Bottas. Rosberg performance was somewhat masked a bit by the circumstance that the car from 2014-2016 was more dominant. He could qualify some 4 tenths off the pace and still retain the first row comfortably.

Bottas never had that luxury, at least not until this year (and this year, during races, the RedBull is closer than any competitor was during 14-16). 2017 and 2018 were both years where a Ferrari was leading the championship over prolonged periods. In 2019, they even had a winning and pole setting streak, which demonstrates how close the race was. When faced with such a situation - a team like Mercedes focuses their strategic decisions differently. In 2014-2016 they were happy to let their drivers fight it out, even using different strategies (Bahrain 2014). When Bottas arrived, they didnt, as they were focusing on getting wins, even if sometimes to the detriment of their driver (mostly Bottas who got used because he was behind and then was left out as a strategic pawn against the Ferraris). These events hurt his stats.

Also, one can not discount the fact that Hamilton has sognificantly grown as a driver since 2016. He shows up at every race and has had pretty much zero off days, which frequently happened during his team up with Rosberg.

All in all, i still think Rosberg was the fiercer competitor. Was he quicker? Maybe. Maybe through his fiercer conpetitiveness. Pure speed however.... i dont think they’d be that far off each other.

Considering the job Hamilton is doing, i dont think Bottas is doing that bad. He is certainly doing better at challenging Hamilton, than Albon is Max, or Vettel is Leclerc. From the top 3 big teams, it’s the closest pairing by far. Considering the possibility that Hamilton is the strongest of them all, that says quite a bit IMO.
I don't see the aggressiveness Rosberg had in Bottas. I think over a single lap, they are probably pretty equal. On a race distance though, Rosberg would tend to fight more for places while Bottas seems to level off more often than not.

aral
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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It appears that some contributors have lost sight of the actual topic . Please leave your "my driver is better than yours" comments out of the thread. Off topic posts and trolling comments will be removed.

Mchamilton
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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I'm surprised they either didn't catch that early both visually or through the car's sensors, and that they did not even attempt to replace his wing during any one of his multiple stops. Seems like the time lost for a wing replacement would have been made back by the performance gains from a properly set-up wing.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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I have a question about the Albon photo. Does it not look like Max has a normal amount of wing in the background?
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:50 am
I have a question about the Albon photo. Does it not look like Max has a normal amount of wing in the background?
You can only see one side of it, its the difference between either side that's the problem

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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:50 am
I have a question about the Albon photo. Does it not look like Max has a normal amount of wing in the background?
Discussed a bit here already https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewt ... 29#p939829

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Turkish Grand Prix - Instanbul Park, Nov 13 - 15

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NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:50 am
I have a question about the Albon photo. Does it not look like Max has a normal amount of wing in the background?
What I'm saying is, when you look at the 2 photo's , it appears Max is running less wing than Albon. But in the Albon photo it looks like Max is running the same amount of wing as Albon. Basically what I'm getting at is, in that section with the change of direction , it can make the wing look a lot different in a short space. Or the photo has been adjusted. People have to remember these wings still flex and move around.

The photo's above appear to have the line drawn from one brake duct to the other, wet the brake ducts move a lot in relation to the sprung part of the car.

I'm not doubting they adjusted the front wing incorrectly , but it seems like in a weeks time there will be photos of Max's car without a front wing at all. As someone else mentioned, why didnt RedBull spot this with the sensors ? The driver should have been made aware if it was such an issue.
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