On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Just_a_fan
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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lh13 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:24 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:58 am

The post you dug up states facts.
This is the definition of a 'fact': A thing that is known or proved to be true.

Your post contained no facts, only assumptions.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:07 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:34 pm

done that, but didn´t score one single point more than Alonso despite the blatantly obvious support from the team to Dennis protege :wink:
Came second in the championship to Alonso's third. That's "beating your team mate" in the one way that matters - on the standings table.
What Andres125sx wrote was a 'fact', as Hamilton really did not score a single more point than Alonso, yet you started your usual mindless defence of Hamilton. Feel free to do so, but don't stop others if they do the same.
It's a fact that Hamilton came second in the title race in 2007 and Alonso came third. That's a fact. That they had the same number of points is a fact. That Hamilton got the nod on count back is a fact.
lh13 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:24 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:58 am

As for Alonso, well he rather made his bed by effectively threatening the team principal. As to whether there would have been a different outcome, no one knows. Maybe if Hamilton wasn't been messed around by the team in China and forced to run his tyres to the canvas, he'd have won the title anyway. No one knows. Maybe Alonso would have won the title, stayed and won many titles. May be not. But he took the decision to try to force Dennis down a course of action favouring Alonso. But he didn't understand that one man that wouldn't be threatened was Ron Dennis.
If Alonso did all of that, Dennis wouldn't have hired him again, in my opinion.
Dennis admitted that he handled it badly. With time comes introspection and healing.
lh13 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:24 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:58 am

As for McLaren signing Alonso a second time, the team was very different then. No Dennis, no Whitmarsh. So it could be a fresh start.
Wrong, again.

https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dy ... 546463.jpg

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-auto ... son-Button
Dennis wasn't the F1 team principal when Alonso rejoined. He was CEO of the whole McLaren Group. I said the team was different and it was. Dennis wasn't team principal. Éric Boullier was running the team in 2014 when Alonso joined again.
lh13 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:24 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:58 am
As for Hamilton having "team favour and weak team mates", well neither Button nor Rosberg would normally be considered weak. But if it makes you feel better, fine. And team favour? Other than possibly 07, when has the team favoured Hamilton through a season to give him the title?
I never said all of his 7 championships were against weak teammates, but I like how you left out Kovalainen and Bottas. That's 5 championships out of 7 against weak teammates.
Heikki admitted that Hamilton got the better of him and that he couldn't respond. Heikki was well regarded until he went against Hamilton and then his star faded. His 2004 Race of Champions performance was excellent and many sat up and noticed him. He beat big names to win that event.

Likewise Bottas who'd had a very good junior formula career. When he was at Williams, people were speaking highly off him. And today he still shows the occasional turn of speed and takes poles / wins from Hamilton. But Bottas has also admitted that Hamilton just keeps improving year on year. The team have said the same thing too. People think Hamilton just rocks up and the car does it all, but he has developed as a driver over the years too. People say Bottas is weak because they can't stand that Hamilton is beating him hands down. But Bottas has the back catalogue to show he isn't a rabbit.

You don't like Hamilton, that's fine with me. There are a number of drivers that I'm not fond of but I don't spend my time trying to make out that they're no good. If I do, feel free to point out where you think I'm wrong. And I'll continue to do the same when people try to denigrate one of the most successful drivers in F1 history.
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NathanOlder
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:51 pm


You don't like Hamilton, that's fine with me. There are a number of drivers that I'm not fond of but I don't spend my time trying to make out that they're no good. If I do, feel free to point out where you think I'm wrong. And I'll continue to do the same when people try to denigrate one of the most successful drivers in F1 history.
Unfortunately people trying to show why Lewis is a bad driver never use stats or real examples, as there isn't enough, hardly any at all in fact ti help that claim.
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Andres125sx
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:58 am
As for Alonso, well he rather made his bed by effectively threatening the team principal. As to whether there would have been a different outcome, no one knows. Maybe if Hamilton wasn't been messed around by the team in China and forced to run his tyres to the canvas, he'd have won the title anyway. No one knows. Maybe Alonso would have won the title, stayed and won many titles. May be not. But he took the decision to try to force Dennis down a course of action favouring Alonso. But he didn't understand that one man that wouldn't be threatened was Ron Dennis.

As for McLaren signing Alonso a second time, the team was very different then. No Dennis, no Whitmarsh. So it could be a fresh start.

As for Hamilton having "team favour and weak team mates", well neither Button nor Rosberg would normally be considered weak. But if it makes you feel better, fine. And team favour? Other than possibly 07, when has the team favoured Hamilton through a season to give him the title?
I agree with most of that, but that was subsequent to what I did explain in my post, so the team actually was fighting him and even sabotaging his car (in a safe manner, higher tire pressures only make the car slower) so he didn´t have anything to lose, it was a desperate attempt to recover equality. And obviously a wrong way if you ask me. But it was not Alonso threatenning the team, it was the team sabotagging Alonso´s car and he then threatenning the team, it´s different

About if team orders make me feel better, not at all. Hamilton has always been my second favourite after Alonso even before he raced in F1, and 2007 didn´t change that. It was McLaren facts what made me angry, Lewis always did what any other driver would have done

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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:01 am
Damn some people are still so bitter about 2007.
Not at all, but if some people mention spygate as a problem caused by Alonso when it was McLaren who cheated and sabotagged one of his driver´s car, sorry but I´ll clarify it now and in 2050...

NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:01 am
And is there really any real proof and evidence that Mclaren favoured either driver ?
Did you read my post??

This is F1, there are contracts banning any comment about anything about the team even years after you leave the team. But McLaren admitted they made a mistake with Alonso´s tire pressures in one of the key GP, and the team principal said they were racing against Alonso (his own driver) not against Kimi (rival driver who won that title).

What else do you need? In F1 you will never get more obvious evidences

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Andres125sx
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:11 pm
aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:49 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:39 am


Yeah, I still dont see any real proof.
1- Alonso claimed he was being slowed down, he thought that, so FIA put someone in the garage, nothing ever come of it.
2- Andreas said Alonso had wrong tyre pressure , that never happens.
It does, its happened since, Teams make mistakes.

So theres no real proof that Mclaren slowed Alonso down on purpose. Just Alonso fans as the can't understand why Alosno didnt destroy Lewis. When Lewis fans just accept that both Alonso and Lewis are the best of their times.
You asked for evidence and Andres125sx posted plenty of evidence. Of course everybody is free to make up their own opinion based on these and their own personal biases.
His "evidence":
But the most evident proof is Alonso signing in with Renault (midfielder at best) when he had a valid contract with best team for 2008. The only reason a driver as competitive as Alonso will step down from a winning team when he already have a contract is he´s 100% sure that team will never allow him to fight for the title.
He fell out with the team principal. They separated by mutual agreement because they couldn't work together. That's not proof that the team would sabotage him in future.
The obvious team orders to Kovalainen next season, even at the start of the season (something not even Ferrari do ever despite their fame) is another evident proof
Heikki didn't challenge Hamilton. What team orders were there at the start of the 2008 season?
A fourth proof is Ron Dennis paying Hamilton career since he was 12, so both himself and the team (who missed an english champion for too many years) were eager to see Lewis winning in their rookie year, what would have been a marketing bomb
That's no proof of anything. McLaren had sponsored Hamilton's early career just as lots of drivers are sponsored in their early careers. Do you really think they'd derail Alonso just for that reason?
A fifth would be FIA sending a marshal to McLaren garage to ensure there was nothing weird there
This was done because it was being suggested that Alonso's car was being messed around with. Which it wasn't.
A sixth was McLaren saying they did a mistake with Alonso tire pressures in one of the final key GPs, providing more pressure than needed and making Alonso car some tenths slower instantly. No F1 team make those mistakes
Really? No F1 team makes tyre pressure mistakes? Right. Never happened before or since. Total one off effecting only Alonso? Ok, got it.

So the "evidence" is pretty, er, thin. :wink:
OMG that´s what you consider debunking evidences? It´s more of a No, no, no, that´s not real because I don´t want to believe that!!


I´ll reply you in detail this afternoon if I have some time

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JordanMugen
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:51 pm
Heikki admitted that Hamilton got the better of him ... But Bottas has also admitted that Hamilton just keeps improving year on year. The team have said the same thing too. People think Hamilton just rocks up and the car does it all
There is literally nothing to show that Kovalainen and Bottas are as speedy as Alonso, Button and Rosberg. The latter of which either tied on points or scored more points over a season than Hamilton. Without teammates of at least this calibre, it is far from certain that Hamilton "continually improves".

If Hamilton builds a bigger and bigger gap over Ricciardo or Russell in the second Mercedes throughout the season and over multiple seasons, then yes, Hamilton "continually improves" but without that, such notion is hard to justify. ;)

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JordanMugen
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:13 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:51 pm


You don't like Hamilton, that's fine with me. There are a number of drivers that I'm not fond of but I don't spend my time trying to make out that they're no good.
Unfortunately people trying to show why Lewis is a bad driver
:?:

Who says that? :wink: It is clear Hamilton is a very good driver. People merely say it remains unclear whether Hamilton holds a margin over Alonso, Verstappen, Leclerc, Ricciardo and Russell to the level the statistics of race wins & championships suggest. :)

One presumes, for instance, Riccardo would win at least 30-50% of races where Mercedes is dominant, as opposed to Bottas' 5%, and therefore with Ricciardo as teammate, Hamilton's win tally would be less, and would perhaps have not yet overhauled Schumacher's. Just as Rosberg, for instance, won up to 9 of the 21 races per season.

Trying to hype up Kovalainen and Bottas as being on par with Alonso, Button and Rosberg, and thus worthy opponents when -- to the contrary -- there is no evidence of this, is most diversionary. ;)

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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:30 am

If Hamilton builds a bigger and bigger gap over Ricciardo or Russell in the second Mercedes throughout the season and over multiple seasons, then yes, Hamilton "continually improves" but without that, such notion is hard to justify. ;)
His race engineering team have also spoken about how he has continued to develop and improve himself.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:30 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:51 pm
Heikki admitted that Hamilton got the better of him ... But Bottas has also admitted that Hamilton just keeps improving year on year. The team have said the same thing too. People think Hamilton just rocks up and the car does it all
There is literally nothing to show that Kovalainen and Bottas are as speedy as Alonso, Button and Rosberg.
I never said they were. I said they were highly rated before they went up against Hamilton.
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 11:02 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:30 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:51 pm
Heikki admitted that Hamilton got the better of him ... But Bottas has also admitted that Hamilton just keeps improving year on year. The team have said the same thing too. People think Hamilton just rocks up and the car does it all
There is literally nothing to show that Kovalainen and Bottas are as speedy as Alonso, Button and Rosberg.
I never said they were. I said they were highly rated before they went up against Hamilton.
Bottas??! No, not by me, was he highly rated by you before he went up against Hamilton? The opposite. Once Rosberg retired I think Merc took the chance this offered to give Hamilton a wing man rather then a real opponent.
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:05 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:01 am
Damn some people are still so bitter about 2007.
Not at all, but if some people mention spygate as a problem caused by Alonso when it was McLaren who cheated and sabotagged one of his driver´s car, sorry but I´ll clarify it now and in 2050...

NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:01 am
And is there really any real proof and evidence that Mclaren favoured either driver ?
Did you read my post??

This is F1, there are contracts banning any comment about anything about the team even years after you leave the team. But McLaren admitted they made a mistake with Alonso´s tire pressures in one of the key GP, and the team principal said they were racing against Alonso (his own driver) not against Kimi (rival driver who won that title).

What else do you need? In F1 you will never get more obvious evidences
So the only thing you have proof of is Alonso's tyres in one race were the wrong pressure. Teams make tyre pressure errors often. It happens. Dennis did indeed say we are racing Alonso, but Alonso still had a car the same as Lewis is all im saying.
The way some want us to believe is that Fernando had 1 arm tied behiind his back when this simply wasnt true.
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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When did this thread become about Hamilton? There are enough Hamilton threads already.
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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hollus wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:25 pm
When did this thread become about Hamilton? There are enough Hamilton threads already.
Hey, for the past 7 years every drivers related topic became a shouting match why Alonso is the best ever, finally there is one about Fernando... and it converts to Hamilton... don't know if it's progress or something else :P

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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:41 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:05 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:01 am
Damn some people are still so bitter about 2007.
Not at all, but if some people mention spygate as a problem caused by Alonso when it was McLaren who cheated and sabotagged one of his driver´s car, sorry but I´ll clarify it now and in 2050...

NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:01 am
And is there really any real proof and evidence that Mclaren favoured either driver ?
Did you read my post??

This is F1, there are contracts banning any comment about anything about the team even years after you leave the team. But McLaren admitted they made a mistake with Alonso´s tire pressures in one of the key GP, and the team principal said they were racing against Alonso (his own driver) not against Kimi (rival driver who won that title).

What else do you need? In F1 you will never get more obvious evidences
So the only thing you have proof of is Alonso's tyres in one race were the wrong pressure. Teams make tyre pressure errors often. It happens. Dennis did indeed say we are racing Alonso, but Alonso still had a car the same as Lewis is all im saying.
The way some want us to believe is that Fernando had 1 arm tied behiind his back when this simply wasnt true.
His team made a noob mistake in one of the key GPs when the title was in play wich coincidentally made Alonso car some tenths slower, but you keep ignoring this blatant fact?

That same boss paid Lewis career since he was a child, what any lawyer would consider an obvious and worrying conflict of interests, but you keep ignoring this fact

Alonso, a true racer who never get enough, signed with Renault who was at the bottom of the midfield when he had a valid contract with McLaren who was best team/car. Even with all problems contracts are contracts, he could have stayed in McLaren and fight Lewis for the title again but he did prefer goint to the bottom of the midfield despite his known competitiveness, what is another proof McLaren will never let him fight for the title, but you keep ignoring this blatant fact

.
.
.

Maybe you need the team principal saying Alonso was his enemy to get conviced... oh wait! :P :lol: #-o

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NathanOlder
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Re: On this day 5 years ago: The tragedy of Fernando Alonso's radio outburst in Honda's home race at Suzuka Circuit

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Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:00 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:41 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:05 am


Not at all, but if some people mention spygate as a problem caused by Alonso when it was McLaren who cheated and sabotagged one of his driver´s car, sorry but I´ll clarify it now and in 2050...




Did you read my post??

This is F1, there are contracts banning any comment about anything about the team even years after you leave the team. But McLaren admitted they made a mistake with Alonso´s tire pressures in one of the key GP, and the team principal said they were racing against Alonso (his own driver) not against Kimi (rival driver who won that title).

What else do you need? In F1 you will never get more obvious evidences
So the only thing you have proof of is Alonso's tyres in one race were the wrong pressure. Teams make tyre pressure errors often. It happens. Dennis did indeed say we are racing Alonso, but Alonso still had a car the same as Lewis is all im saying.
The way some want us to believe is that Fernando had 1 arm tied behiind his back when this simply wasnt true.
His team made a noob mistake in one of the key GPs when the title was in play wich coincidentally made Alonso car some tenths slower, but you keep ignoring this blatant fact?
The same team that absolutely screwed up, let's say a noob mistake in China with Lewis strategy.

I guess they wanted Lewis to lose too? or teams just make mistakes.

I'll stick with what was in front of me. A team making errors on both sides of the garage, A very paranoid Spanish chap that couldn't believe or accept a rookie was getting the better of him, and FIA personnel that were placed in the garage and found nothing wrong.
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