2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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TimW wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:27 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:14 pm
What would be the odd that a debris will cut the tyre and instantly destroy the construction?
Twice in the same race, both the rear left, on the same long straight, same hardness, with almost the same number of laps on them?
Softs ran pretty long with more vehicle weight.

Im not a tyre expert but if the construction failed - If we go by past Pirelli construction failures - We see it happens not in an istant but a few moments with the kevlar fibres flailing all over the place if its deep or with the side-wall tearing away after a few laps of blistering.

For punctures... That's usually a slow(er) occurence too.

None of these happened in Baku and historically Baku tyre failures have been punctures. So I was quite shocked when I saw Christian Horner fabricating the story to tell Masi live in front of the camera.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

darkpino
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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TimW wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:27 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:14 pm
What would be the odd that a debris will cut the tyre and instantly destroy the construction?
Twice in the same race, both the rear left, on the same long straight, same hardness, with almost the same number of laps on them?
It’s not unthinkable there’s been a sharp kerb or for example a draincover. It doesn’t have to be debris or wear.

Although I personally think the QA system of Pirelli leaves a bit undesired at this point but that’s only based on what I’ve seen happening the last couple of years and not even slight based on facts

sosic2121
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:31 pm
So I was quite shocked when I saw Christian Horner fabricating the story to tell Masi live in front of the camera.
Nice one mate, nice one!

And what was his angle, what was he trying to achieve? Lose P1 on restart (as actually happened for a moment)?

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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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sosic2121 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:48 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:31 pm
So I was quite shocked when I saw Christian Horner fabricating the story to tell Masi live in front of the camera.
Nice one mate, nice one!

And what was his angle, what was he trying to achieve? Lose P1 on restart (as actually happened for a moment)?
When they asked for Red flag and if the race didn't restart, then according to count back Max would have won the race (just like fisichella won the race in Jordan at 2003 brazil).

Other than that they knew Perez hydraulics was going to give way and they wanted to stop and save it.

Also they were worried perez tyres was gonna blow like max, I effect losing them from 1-2 to 2 dnfs

These sounds like good incentives to me
Last edited by siskue2005 on Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:31 pm
Im not a tyre expert but if the construction failed - If we go by past Pirelli construction failures - We see it happens not in an istant but a few moments with the kevlar fibres flailing all over the place if its deep or with the side-wall tearing away after a few laps of blistering.
Having just watched stroll's onboard, it was 2 seconds maximum from perfectly fine, to spinning into the wall.

Here are some frame grabs of Strolls left rear, As you can see the inner sidewall has completely separated from the tread, over a significant chunk of the tires diameter.

Paul di Resta said on-air (after seeing the second shot) "that is absolutely a Pirelli issue" and I strongly agree with that.

Image
Image
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:52 pm
When they asked for Red flag and if the race didn't restart, then according to count back Max would have won the race (just like fisichella won the race in Jordan at 2003 brazil).

Other than that they knew Perez hydraulics was going to give way and they wanted to stop and save it.
I don't think so, because Max crossed the finish line on the lap he crashed, and Sergio, Lewis, and a few others had all crossed the line before the double yellows came out, let alone before the safety car and red flag.

If i had to bet, I'd say they wanted a red flag because the were worried about Sergio's tires and his hydraulic issues to a lesser degree.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:52 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:48 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:31 pm
So I was quite shocked when I saw Christian Horner fabricating the story to tell Masi live in front of the camera.
Nice one mate, nice one!

And what was his angle, what was he trying to achieve? Lose P1 on restart (as actually happened for a moment)?
When they asked for Red flag and if the race didn't restart, then according to count back Max would have won the race (just like fisichella won the race in Jordan at 2003 brazil).

Other than that they knew Perez hydraulics was going to give way and they wanted to stop and save it.

Also they were worried perez tyres was gonna blow like max, I effect losing them from 1-2 to 2 dnfs

These sounds like good incentives to me
Exactamundo!

Christian's agenda was always going be a call for anything that would buy time. A puncture is immediately filed away... But a tyre scare is the perfect thing...

Ending the race by Redflag was not going to happen. Wasn't worth discussing for Christian. There has been so many safety cars crossing the finish line in recent years. So definitely Christian knew Masis rather runs to completion (less work, more TV time and more $$$) than end the race early.

Christian's best option was then to create fear that everyones tyres could explode without warning. He said something like "this tyre failed without warning! We saw nothing! We feel this failed with natural wear!"

I need to check back when Perez had that issue. But I think it was in the pits during the red flag. Too late to end the race... Unless there was a tyre scare..
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:53 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:31 pm
Im not a tyre expert but if the construction failed - If we go by past Pirelli construction failures - We see it happens not in an istant but a few moments with the kevlar fibres flailing all over the place if its deep or with the side-wall tearing away after a few laps of blistering.
Having just watched stroll's onboard, it was 2 seconds maximum from perfectly fine, to spinning into the wall.

Here are some frame grabs of Strolls left rear, As you can see the inner sidewall has completely separated from the tread, over a significant chunk of the tires diameter.

Paul di Resta said on-air (after seeing the second shot) "that is absolutely a Pirelli issue" and I strongly agree with that.

https://i.ibb.co/Qj588VF/1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/42Kv2M1/2.jpg
I heard that comment from Paul Diresta. It's jumping to conclusions. 90% of the time a Pirelli tyre collapses independent of the cause, the sidewall separates. The speed of rotation, the stresses, the hoop and radial stress is really high on the tread, and the sidewall has a radial hoop and torsional stress. When the air cushion is gone the tread decelerates really fast.. So it rips! (shears) away from the side wall with the torque.

You sure you want to strongly agree with little evidence? There is more evidence for it being debris. Would you say that's an anchoring bias? Holding on to the first bit of stuff blurted out by Horner and Paul; two very biased F1 personalities!!
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

dans79
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:53 am
You sure you want to strongly agree with little evidence?
Yea, I'm sure because the outer sidewalls on both tires were pristine. Not to mention both drivers went from perfectly fine, to in the wall and then a dead stop within 2 or 3 hundred meters. Something like that only happens with a catastrophic failure.
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sosic2121
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:52 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:48 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:31 pm
So I was quite shocked when I saw Christian Horner fabricating the story to tell Masi live in front of the camera.
Nice one mate, nice one!

And what was his angle, what was he trying to achieve? Lose P1 on restart (as actually happened for a moment)?
When they asked for Red flag and if the race didn't restart, then according to count back Max would have won the race (just like fisichella won the race in Jordan at 2003 brazil).

Other than that they knew Perez hydraulics was going to give way and they wanted to stop and save it.

Also they were worried perez tyres was gonna blow like max, I effect losing them from 1-2 to 2 dnfs

These sounds like good incentives to me
Fair point. Would Max have won since they done couple more laps under SC?

But I don't think there was a real chance of race being stopped. IMO other most likely scenario was finish behind SC, and
keeping 1st place.
Restart on cold tires doomed Perez.

sosic2121
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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sosic2121 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:52 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:48 pm

Nice one mate, nice one!

And what was his angle, what was he trying to achieve? Lose P1 on restart (as actually happened for a moment)?
When they asked for Red flag and if the race didn't restart, then according to count back Max would have won the race (just like fisichella won the race in Jordan at 2003 brazil).

Other than that they knew Perez hydraulics was going to give way and they wanted to stop and save it.

Also they were worried perez tyres was gonna blow like max, I effect losing them from 1-2 to 2 dnfs

These sounds like good incentives to me
Fair point. Would Max have won since they done couple more laps under SC?

But I don't think there was a real chance of race being stopped. IMO other most likely scenario was finish behind SC, and
keeping 1st place.
Restart on cold tires doomed Perez.
And BTW,Lewis had the oldest tire among them.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:53 am
dans79 wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:53 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:31 pm
Im not a tyre expert but if the construction failed - If we go by past Pirelli construction failures - We see it happens not in an istant but a few moments with the kevlar fibres flailing all over the place if its deep or with the side-wall tearing away after a few laps of blistering.
Having just watched stroll's onboard, it was 2 seconds maximum from perfectly fine, to spinning into the wall.

Here are some frame grabs of Strolls left rear, As you can see the inner sidewall has completely separated from the tread, over a significant chunk of the tires diameter.

Paul di Resta said on-air (after seeing the second shot) "that is absolutely a Pirelli issue" and I strongly agree with that.

https://i.ibb.co/Qj588VF/1.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/42Kv2M1/2.jpg
I heard that comment from Paul Diresta. It's jumping to conclusions. 90% of the time a Pirelli tyre collapses independent of the cause, the sidewall separates. The speed of rotation, the stresses, the hoop and radial stress is really high on the tread, and the sidewall has a radial hoop and torsional stress. When the air cushion is gone the tread decelerates really fast.. So it rips! (shears) away from the side wall with the torque.

You sure you want to strongly agree with little evidence? There is more evidence for it being debris. Would you say that's an anchoring bias? Holding on to the first bit of stuff blurted out by Horner and Paul; two very biased F1 personalities!!
Gary Anderson comes to the same conclusion as dans79 - https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-and ... -failures/

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nzjrs
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:35 am
Christian's best option was then to create fear that everyones tyres could explode without warning. He said something like "this tyre failed without warning! We saw nothing! We feel this failed with natural wear!"
Do you think is a lie?

BTW, it was Jonathan Wheatley who said to Massi "We got zero warning of that failure. Nothing. Nothing on a metric, not a vibration, nothing."
Last edited by nzjrs on Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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PZ wrote:You sure you want to strongly agree with little evidence?
Sorry to say, but don't you see a little bit of irony in this comment?

carisi2k
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Re: 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:15 pm

I agree on both accounts. Tactically they dropped the ball here. With one caveat. Pirelli said the red white one stopper was best. The tires would last. Stroll did not have his blowout yet at the first (normal) pitstop. So going longer was “not needed” (but would have been pertinent). After the stroll blowout they should have stopped under the SC but if NOBODY else would have, would Max be able to get back to P1? At least risky. And the tires would last to the end according to Pirelli. It was even the advised quickest strategy.

So perhaps our hindsight is a luxury.
My take is that on fresher tyres and a superior car with 20 laps left he would have romped through the field with all the others on nearly depleted tyres. Maybe Seb would have been the only issue. Also with there sub 2 second stops he would have probably been at the back of the top ten. If you saw all the guys on fresh tyres that were making there way up the field early on after that stroll restart you would be more convinced. The latest youtube videos on F1 show this to be the case.