Page 8 of 268
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 09 Feb 2021, 23:11
by gruntguru
RedNEO wrote: ↑09 Feb 2021, 17:17
gruntguru wrote: ↑08 Feb 2021, 23:43
RedNEO wrote: ↑08 Feb 2021, 15:24
Mercedes,Renault ect have publicly laid out there plans. They are available online for you to look at.
I was asking if you would like to quote the bit where they say they are continuing development of ICE's for "X" number of years.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554
So Toto Wolf is now the spokesman for Daimler's corporate future?
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 09 Feb 2021, 23:54
by RedNEO
gruntguru wrote: ↑09 Feb 2021, 23:11
RedNEO wrote: ↑09 Feb 2021, 17:17
gruntguru wrote: ↑08 Feb 2021, 23:43
I was asking if you would like to quote the bit where they say they are continuing development of ICE's for "X" number of years.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554
So Toto Wolf is now the spokesman for Daimler's corporate future?
You asked for quotes, I gave them. What you posted is a quote-less article that’s a year out of date. Hardly proof of anything compared to what I just provided. I’m not in the business of arguing schematics with someone who can’t be bothered to look for themselves until it’s time to try and find a way to disprove what I just provided.
To the downvote, you can’t downvote me for “misrepresented quotes”. Toto works for Mercedes. That’s coming from the source he is one of the most reliable person to tell the media which direction they are going. Again another reason why this downvote systems is just a way for people to downvote what they don’t want to hear.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 10 Feb 2021, 22:19
by NL_Fer
Is it is true, that both Renault and Ferrari are working on a split turbo like Mercedes and Honda. The chance that the new powerunit will be a V4 with MGU-H can be very realistic. A V4 would make the split turbo shorter, more easy to design.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 02:10
by Zynerji
NL_Fer wrote: ↑10 Feb 2021, 22:19
Is it is true, that both Renault and Ferrari are working on a split turbo like Mercedes and Honda. The chance that the new powerunit will be a V4 with MGU-H can be very realistic. A V4 would make the split turbo shorter, more easy to design.
Hot V would make most sense then.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 10:41
by Jolle
Zynerji wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 02:10
NL_Fer wrote: ↑10 Feb 2021, 22:19
Is it is true, that both Renault and Ferrari are working on a split turbo like Mercedes and Honda. The chance that the new powerunit will be a V4 with MGU-H can be very realistic. A V4 would make the split turbo shorter, more easy to design.
Hot V would make most sense then.
A hot V in a formula car wouldn’t make much sense. Packaging is a nightmare. You’ll have hot exhaust in a place that is covered by the air intake and bulky intakes there you need to slim down the side pods.
In a road car it makes sense because you can make the engine lower.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 15:37
by JordanMugen
NL_Fer wrote: ↑10 Feb 2021, 22:19
Is it is true, that both Renault and Ferrari are working on a split turbo like Mercedes and Honda. The chance that the new powerunit will be a V4 with MGU-H can be very realistic. A V4 would make the split turbo shorter, more easy to design.
While the V4 is the most logical outcome, what is the probability of removing the turbocharger
entirely and compensating for the turbocharger's removal by increasing engine capacity by 100% to a 3.2L V12?
I feel the V12 would deliver a far superior entertainment spectacle for Formula One and would be the preferred solution of many fans. It would serve to eliminate the inessential turbocharger and MGUH from the powertrain (in exchange for 6 extra cylinders and injectors), while the power units could still be developed under a maximum fuel flow regulation for optimal
naturally aspirated efficiency -- which would alleviate concerns of manufacturers merely "throwing bulk fuel" at the power unit to make power, which would be seen as environmentally untenable.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 15:56
by Holm86
JordanMugen wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 15:37
NL_Fer wrote: ↑10 Feb 2021, 22:19
Is it is true, that both Renault and Ferrari are working on a split turbo like Mercedes and Honda. The chance that the new powerunit will be a V4 with MGU-H can be very realistic. A V4 would make the split turbo shorter, more easy to design.
While the V4 is the most logical outcome, what is the probability of removing the turbocharger
entirely and compensating for the turbocharger's removal by increasing engine capacity by 100% to a 3.2L V12?
I feel the V12 would deliver a far superior entertainment spectacle for Formula One and would be the preferred solution of many fans. It would serve to eliminate the inessential turbocharger and MGUH from the powertrain (in exchange for 6 extra cylinders and injectors), while the power units could still be developed under a maximum fuel flow regulation for optimal
naturally aspirated efficiency -- which would alleviate concerns of manufacturers merely "throwing bulk fuel" at the power unit to make power, which would be seen as environmentally untenable.
I will guarantee you that it won't happen.
It would be very difficult, if not impossible to get the best out of the fuel flow limit, in a NA engine, as you can't control the air very well, to get the right air/fuel mixture.
Air density varies a lot with altitude and temperature, and in a turbo engine you can easily compensate for this by controlling the boost. You can't do that in a naturally aspirated engine.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 19:07
by Rodak
A hot V in a formula car wouldn’t make much sense. Packaging is a nightmare. You’ll have hot exhaust in a place that is covered by the air intake and bulky intakes there you need to slim down the side pods.
Not to mention the intercooler.......
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 19:40
by Zynerji
Rodak wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 19:07
A hot V in a formula car wouldn’t make much sense. Packaging is a nightmare. You’ll have hot exhaust in a place that is covered by the air intake and bulky intakes there you need to slim down the side pods.
Not to mention the intercooler.......
Isn't the F2 engine a hot V?
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 20:08
by Ringleheim
New engines coming now in 2025.
The key principles that need to be met:
1) Environmental sustainability and social and automotive relevance
2) Fully sustainable fuel
3) Creating a powerful and emotive power unit
4) Significant cost reduction
5) Attractiveness to new power unit manufacturers
I love that environmental and social relevance concerns are NUMBER ONE.
Hello, the socially relevant and environmentally sound approach to F1 is to abolish it!
LOL
Build normally aspirated screamers and let the fans enjoy the racing again.
None of this stuff is "socially relevant".
If they want to be relevant, make hydrogen powered engines. That's where everything will be down the road anyway.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 21:12
by Jolle
Ringleheim wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 20:08
New engines coming now in 2025.
The key principles that need to be met:
1) Environmental sustainability and social and automotive relevance
2) Fully sustainable fuel
3) Creating a powerful and emotive power unit
4) Significant cost reduction
5) Attractiveness to new power unit manufacturers
I love that environmental and social relevance concerns are NUMBER ONE.
Hello, the socially relevant and environmentally sound approach to F1 is to abolish it!
LOL
Build normally aspirated screamers and let the fans enjoy the racing again.
None of this stuff is "socially relevant".
If they want to be relevant, make hydrogen powered engines. That's where everything will be down the road anyway.
Car companies are also abandoning hydrogen power cars. It's inefficient and costly compared to battery power.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 21:15
by Jolle
Zynerji wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 19:40
Rodak wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 19:07
A hot V in a formula car wouldn’t make much sense. Packaging is a nightmare. You’ll have hot exhaust in a place that is covered by the air intake and bulky intakes there you need to slim down the side pods.
Not to mention the intercooler.......
Isn't the F2 engine a hot V?
They are, but the setup of a F2 system is so much simpler because it's a spec series. No need to be efficient, just needs to be cheap.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 22:33
by Tommy Cookers
JordanMugen wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 15:37
While the V4 is the most logical outcome, what is the probability of removing the turbocharger
entirely and compensating for the turbocharger's removal by increasing engine capacity by 100% to a 3.2L V12? :D
I feel the V12 would deliver a far superior entertainment spectacle for Formula One and would be the preferred solution of many fans. It would serve to eliminate the inessential turbocharger and MGUH from the powertrain (in exchange for 6 extra cylinders and injectors), while the power units could still be developed under a maximum fuel flow regulation for optimal
naturally aspirated efficiency -- which would alleviate concerns of manufacturers merely "throwing bulk fuel" at the power unit to make power, which would be seen as environmentally untenable.
NA efficiency will be improved with blowdown recovery turbines in the exhaust system
mechanically connected to the ICE (or electrically connected to allow either real-time mode or energy storage mode)
NA efficiency also will like hybrid turbo F1 benefit from 'jet-induced' very lean running aka heat dilution
(relative to NA) hybrid F1 gives the performance of an engine downsized thermally but not downsized mechanically
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 22:50
by Jolle
Seeing that the future of car makers is software, recovery and EV plus that investments in ICE is winding down everywhere, I assume that the ICE part will become so much restricted that it’s almost a spec part. More freedom in the EV part to make a difference on track.
Also opening the door for other manufacturers to “order” the ICE part of the engine at Cosworth or Gibson.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 11 Feb 2021, 23:34
by Zynerji
Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 22:33
JordanMugen wrote: ↑11 Feb 2021, 15:37
While the V4 is the most logical outcome, what is the probability of removing the turbocharger
entirely and compensating for the turbocharger's removal by increasing engine capacity by 100% to a 3.2L V12?
I feel the V12 would deliver a far superior entertainment spectacle for Formula One and would be the preferred solution of many fans. It would serve to eliminate the inessential turbocharger and MGUH from the powertrain (in exchange for 6 extra cylinders and injectors), while the power units could still be developed under a maximum fuel flow regulation for optimal
naturally aspirated efficiency -- which would alleviate concerns of manufacturers merely "throwing bulk fuel" at the power unit to make power, which would be seen as environmentally untenable.
NA efficiency will be improved with recovery turbines in the exhaust system
mechanically connected to the ICE (or electrically connected to allow either real-time mode or energy storage mode)
NA efficiency also will like hybrid turbo F1 benefit from 'jet-induced' very lean running aka heat dilution
I thought TJI could only lean burn with boost. It can do the same efficiency gains with N/A?
