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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 21:57
by Pedrohf
henry wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:50
Pedrohf wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 19:24
godlameroso wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 19:14
You're the engine expert, what happens to the exhaust gases when the wastegates are open?
Depending on the ammount of opening, some gases go through the wastegate, some gases go through the turbine, where they lose pressure, heat, and expand. - THERE'S GOTTA BE A PRESSURE DIFFERENCE TO RUN THE TURBINE.
But your post says: "turbo in electric supercharger mode", - Wastegate fully open to minimize pumping losses -, compressor driven by the MGU-K, helped by the magical blowdown energy, although all the gases are flowing via the wastegate.
Also.. what's exactly the point? save 80kW of exahust pumping losses, and use 80kW of kinetic energy + cable losses, + generator losses + motor losses + electronic losses?
I think you misunderstand the kocation of the wastegates. They are not before the turbine, diverting gas away from it, that would be a waste. They are in the periphery of the turbine allowing the gasses to do work on the impeller and then exit without navigating the expansion route and so not building up back-pressure.
If they dont expand or build-up backpressure, they dont do any work. Simple thermodynamics.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:05
by 63l8qrrfy6
This has blown (ha!) out of proportion.
henry is correct about wastegates and pedo is making an ass of himself.
Edit - meant to say henry is correct.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:09
by henry
Pedrohf wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:57
henry wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:50
Pedrohf wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 19:24
Depending on the ammount of opening, some gases go through the wastegate, some gases go through the turbine, where they lose pressure, heat, and expand. - THERE'S GOTTA BE A PRESSURE DIFFERENCE TO RUN THE TURBINE.
But your post says: "turbo in electric supercharger mode", - Wastegate fully open to minimize pumping losses -, compressor driven by the MGU-K, helped by the magical blowdown energy, although all the gases are flowing via the wastegate.
Also.. what's exactly the point? save 80kW of exahust pumping losses, and use 80kW of kinetic energy + cable losses, + generator losses + motor losses + electronic losses?
I think you misunderstand the kocation of the wastegates. They are not before the turbine, diverting gas away from it, that would be a waste. They are in the periphery of the turbine allowing the gasses to do work on the impeller and then exit without navigating the expansion route and so not building up back-pressure.
If they dont expand or build-up backpressure, they dont do any work. Simple thermodynamics.
A further misunderstanding. Blowdown turbines rely on momentum change. Can I suggest you read the thread I pointed at.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:18
by Pedrohf
henry wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:09
Pedrohf wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:57
henry wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:50
I think you misunderstand the kocation of the wastegates. They are not before the turbine, diverting gas away from it, that would be a waste. They are in the periphery of the turbine allowing the gasses to do work on the impeller and then exit without navigating the expansion route and so not building up back-pressure.
If they dont expand or build-up backpressure, they dont do any work. Simple thermodynamics.
A further misunderstanding. Blowdown turbines rely on momentum change. Can I suggest you read the thread I pointed at.
What you call "blowdown energy", are pressure waves created when the exhaust valves open or close. If the wastegate is open, they dont go through the turbine, they simply dissipate and dont do any work.
Turbines are powered by both energy, pressure, mass and heat from the exhaust gases and pulses from valve opening and closing. If the wastegate valve is open, that pressure wave (which has less energy than energy gases), goes through the wastegate, not the turbine.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:30
by ZakB
ArcticWolfie wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:24
ZakB wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:21
Does anyone still believe that Honda can get on top of things?
Only if they introduce a major upgrade upcoming weekend.
They won't; spec 4.0 isn't the big update, that one comes in Oktober after the Japanese grand prix.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:37
by Pedrohf
ZakB wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:30
ArcticWolfie wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:24
ZakB wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:21
Does anyone still believe that Honda can get on top of things?
Only if they introduce a major upgrade upcoming weekend.
They won't; spec 4.0 isn't the big update, that one comes in Oktober after the Japanese grand prix.
To me, it sounds like Honda is struggling combustion efficiency. If the get it right, they will gain more power from the engine itself, and more recovery potential from the MGU-H.
I'm curious about the next GP, with updated oil burning rules too.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:42
by gofast182
ZakB wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:30
ArcticWolfie wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:24
ZakB wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:21
Does anyone still believe that Honda can get on top of things?
Only if they introduce a major upgrade upcoming weekend.
They won't; spec 4.0 isn't the big update, that one comes in Oktober after the Japanese grand prix.
I thought spec. 4 and the October update were one in the same, just with conflicting reports on timing. Recent articles suggest they've been able to move spec. 4 up to now(ish) and that is the update which will have new combustion tech., etc.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:45
by henry
Pedrohf wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:18
henry wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:09
Pedrohf wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:57
If they dont expand or build-up backpressure, they dont do any work. Simple thermodynamics.
A further misunderstanding. Blowdown turbines rely on momentum change. Can I suggest you read the thread I pointed at.
What you call "blowdown energy", are pressure waves created when the exhaust valves open or close. If the wastegate is open, they dont go through the turbine, they simply dissipate and dont do any work.
Turbines are powered by both energy, pressure, mass and heat from the exhaust gases and pulses from valve opening and closing. If the wastegate valve is open, that pressure wave (which has less energy than energy gases), goes through the wastegate, not the turbine.
No it doesn't. It doesn't bypass the turbine it takes a shortcut within the turbine leaving via the periphery of the volute. That may not be what you are used to but that is how it is in these engines.
You may also be of the opinion that I think this is the sole mechanism of energy recovery in these turbines. Far from it. The normal thermodynamic mechanisms you list are also in play when the wastegate is closed and are dominant. However blowdown recovery is significant because it reduces the work the MGU-H has to do when driving the compressor under wastegate open conditions, reduced back pressure, and so increases the time that max power can be deployed in a lap.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 22:49
by ZakB
gofast182 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:42
ZakB wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:30
ArcticWolfie wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 21:24
Only if they introduce a major upgrade upcoming weekend.
They won't; spec 4.0 isn't the big update, that one comes in Oktober after the Japanese grand prix.
I thought spec. 4 and the October update were one in the same, just with conflicting reports on timing. Recent articles suggest they've been able to move spec. 4 up to now(ish) and that is the update which will have new combustion tech., etc.
I doubt it, because this 3.5 update was part of the spec 4 and doesn't seem to bring a lot of performance, while the (old) spec 4.0 should add around 40 bhp. It's probably just a small step to show McLaren that they are doing everything they can.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 28 Aug 2017, 23:06
by Pedrohf
henry wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:45
Pedrohf wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:18
henry wrote: ↑28 Aug 2017, 22:09
A further misunderstanding. Blowdown turbines rely on momentum change. Can I suggest you read the thread I pointed at.
What you call "blowdown energy", are pressure waves created when the exhaust valves open or close. If the wastegate is open, they dont go through the turbine, they simply dissipate and dont do any work.
Turbines are powered by both energy, pressure, mass and heat from the exhaust gases and pulses from valve opening and closing. If the wastegate valve is open, that pressure wave (which has less energy than energy gases), goes through the wastegate, not the turbine.
No it doesn't. It doesn't bypass the turbine it takes a shortcut within the turbine leaving via the periphery of the volute. That may not be what you are used to but that is how it is in these engines.
You may also be of the opinion that I think this is the sole mechanism of energy recovery in these turbines. Far from it. The normal thermodynamic mechanisms you list are also in play when the wastegate is closed and are dominant. However blowdown recovery is significant because it reduces the work the MGU-H has to do when driving the compressor under wastegate open conditions, reduced back pressure, and so increases the time that max power can be deployed in a lap.
lol
That's not because of "blowdown energy". That's an internal wastegate, it has less pressure loss (less pumping losses), and allows for a more precise pressure control.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Aug 2017, 00:02
by diffuser
Off the top of my head, I think they can. Honda has the ability to build technology at the F1 level. Realistically, I don't have any information to be able to answer that question. I have no insight into what's going on @ R&D besides what we read at the tabloids.
Wazari's abandoned me.....
That major update is somewhere in the pipe. Hasegawa wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't there.
Wazari did as well.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Aug 2017, 00:35
by Craigy
Honda seem to be getting on top of reliability in races (I have no problem with trying something in FP and then swapping an engine out).
Power is clearly an issue.
Is fuel-saving?
Basically, yes, Honda are making progress. (Cue a dozen "but not enough progress!" comments from the usual people).
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Aug 2017, 03:15
by Wazari
diffuser wrote: ↑29 Aug 2017, 00:02
Off the top of my head, I think they can. Honda has the ability to build technology at the F1 level. Realistically, I don't have any information to be able to answer that question. I have no insight into what's going on @ R&D besides what we read at the tabloids.
Wazari's abandoned me.....
That major update is somewhere in the pipe. Hasegawa wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't there.
Wazari did as well.
I haven't abandoned you
....I still visit this forum from time to time. This is still a good diversion for me. Some interesting theories. I won't speak to Alonso's latest actions nor Honda's "incompetence, failures, etc.......
There is a major update in the pipeline but I do not know when it will be introduced. This would be a major update, not Spec 3.5, 3.6 etc, but a true Spec 4. There is no way this update can be introduced by Monza IMO.
IMO, two main issues still remain, ERS system management and ICE fuel efficiency.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Aug 2017, 10:45
by ZakB
Wazari wrote: ↑29 Aug 2017, 03:15
diffuser wrote: ↑29 Aug 2017, 00:02
Off the top of my head, I think they can. Honda has the ability to build technology at the F1 level. Realistically, I don't have any information to be able to answer that question. I have no insight into what's going on @ R&D besides what we read at the tabloids.
Wazari's abandoned me.....
That major update is somewhere in the pipe. Hasegawa wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't there.
Wazari did as well.
I haven't abandoned you
....I still visit this forum from time to time. This is still a good diversion for me. Some interesting theories. I won't speak to Alonso's latest actions nor Honda's "incompetence, failures, etc.......
There is a major update in the pipeline but I do not know when it will be introduced. This would be a major update, not Spec 3.5, 3.6 etc, but a true Spec 4. There is no way this update can be introduced by Monza IMO.
IMO, two main issues still remain, ERS system management and ICE fuel efficiency.
According to Marca, that update will arrive after the Japanese GP in Mexico or VS.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Aug 2017, 11:26
by max_speed
Plain truth is that it does not matter which update 3.x or 4.x or when it arrives tomorrow or in monza or after japanese Gp, honda will not be able to make inroads. People harbouring false hopes ( they kept harbouring it for years) should abandon it now. If mclaren does not feel optimistic and keeps running around paddock to find a new supplier then we all know very little to remain eternal optimist.