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Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 13 Oct 2017, 18:55
by dren
Sierra117 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2017, 18:47
dren wrote: ↑13 Oct 2017, 18:31
It looks like Mercedes allows a period of qualification mode at the start of the race. When the Mercedes is out in front, they usually pull a good gap at the start. I'm not so sure the other customer teams do so on the opening laps. Just my guess.
I don't think so as if you watched Ted's notebook after Malaysia, Mercedes said they deploy all of their electric power during the start and the lap if they can. I think that was stated in the recent pitwall strategy video as well.
Good to know, I didn't see that. I'd assume everyone else does, too, though.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 13 Oct 2017, 18:57
by Sierra117
dren wrote: ↑13 Oct 2017, 18:55
Sierra117 wrote: ↑13 Oct 2017, 18:47
dren wrote: ↑13 Oct 2017, 18:31
It looks like Mercedes allows a period of qualification mode at the start of the race. When the Mercedes is out in front, they usually pull a good gap at the start. I'm not so sure the other customer teams do so on the opening laps. Just my guess.
I don't think so as if you watched Ted's notebook after Malaysia, Mercedes said they deploy all of their electric power during the start and the lap if they can. I think that was stated in the recent pitwall strategy video as well.
Good to know, I didn't see that. I'd assume everyone else does, too, though.
I was really surprised that they let that out though. I'd have thought they'd wanna protect such a strategic thing as much as possible but who knows, maybe the rest of the teams knew.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 22:50
by vinuneuro
Maybe this is already known.. during the USGP, Force India COO said they are usually given 4 laps of 'quali mode' each weekend.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 26 Oct 2017, 13:10
by digitalrurouni
vinuneuro wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 22:50
Maybe this is already known.. during the USGP, Force India COO said they are usually given 4 laps of 'quali mode' each weekend.
Wow i didnt know that! Makes it all the more impressive the performance of the Merc W08 cars!
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 26 Oct 2017, 14:41
by toraabe
vinuneuro wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 22:50
Maybe this is already known.. during the USGP, Force India COO said they are usually given 4 laps of 'quali mode' each weekend.
After charging batteries up to 100 %
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 26 Oct 2017, 16:41
by PlatinumZealot
vinuneuro wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 22:50
Maybe this is already known.. during the USGP, Force India COO said they are usually given 4 laps of 'quali mode' each weekend.
This is true and was always the case since 2014. Two uses in qualifying. Two uses in the race.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 26 Oct 2017, 18:49
by godlameroso
I'm pretty sure they use all 4 during qualifying, two attempts in Q2 and two attempts in Q3.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 26 Oct 2017, 22:32
by PlatinumZealot
Not Mercedes factory team though.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 00:14
by Jejking
toraabe wrote: ↑26 Oct 2017, 14:41
vinuneuro wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 22:50
Maybe this is already known.. during the USGP, Force India COO said they are usually given 4 laps of 'quali mode' each weekend.
After charging batteries up to 100 %
I'm wondering about this, to what extent can these batteries over the course of such short laps be charged to max? If you look at 'street tech' the Toyota Prius' and such never raise too much above let's say 75 per cent. Can the batteries be charged while in the pitbox, or do the drivers have to manage the charging themselves ontrack-only? I thought I recalled that with the shock-prevention and the green light the batteries are being bled, or is it just a safeguarding procedure while the battery load is being maintained?
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 03:12
by wuzak
Jejking wrote: ↑27 Oct 2017, 00:14
toraabe wrote: ↑26 Oct 2017, 14:41
vinuneuro wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 22:50
Maybe this is already known.. during the USGP, Force India COO said they are usually given 4 laps of 'quali mode' each weekend.
After charging batteries up to 100 %
I'm wondering about this, to what extent can these batteries over the course of such short laps be charged to max? If you look at 'street tech' the Toyota Prius' and such never raise too much above let's say 75 per cent. Can the batteries be charged while in the pitbox, or do the drivers have to manage the charging themselves ontrack-only? I thought I recalled that with the shock-prevention and the green light the batteries are being bled, or is it just a safeguarding procedure while the battery load is being maintained?
The rules allow a maximum of 4MJ difference between maximum state of charge and minimum state of charge on any given lap.
The battery, therefore, can have a greater capacity than 4MJ and may never actually reach either 100% charge or 0% charge.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 10:58
by Tommy Cookers
the Prius etc always operates within a fractional cycle ie 35%-70%-35%-70% charge to enable their warranted 8 year battery life
ie the Li ion battery has a life of 1000 full 0%-100%-0%-100% cycles or 3000 'Prius-fraction' cycles
this fractional cycle is why EVs have poor range ie the battery is deliberately oversized and underutilised
my guess - F1 ERS is fully utilised ie not oversized (has a full charge-discharge cycle) - and ERS minimum weight limit is based on this sizing
it is liquid-cooled to withstand the extremely high rates of charge and discharge
btw those silly old NiCad batteries have a life of 2000 full cycles
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 20:19
by Jejking
Good info guys! @Tommy, the power output is usually limit, I believe the teams are very careful to not run the battery dry or very low to avoid unnecessary damage to it?
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 22:24
by NL_Fer
Qualifing mode consists of two parts.
1: A one-lap mode for the ERS, where the battery starts at 4MJ and deploys fully till 0MJ when they pass the finish.
2: A higher power mode for the ICE, where more boost or knock is allowed for a limited amount of time.
On the second part, i still believe the factory teams can allow themselfs for a tiny little more margin on extracting maximum power out of the ICE. Look at Bottas, he still can do a decent qualifying, but drops back on races. And yes, the Force India is a low drag, low tire wear design. But since the V6T period, is saw more factory units blow, than customer units.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 22:41
by henry
NL_Fer wrote: ↑27 Oct 2017, 22:24
Qualifing mode consists of two parts.
1: A one-lap mode for the ERS, where the battery starts at 4MJ and deploys fully till 0MJ when they pass the finish.
2: A higher power mode for the ICE, where more boost or knock is allowed for a limited amount of time.
On the second part, i still believe the factory teams can allow themselfs for a tiny little more margin on extracting maximum power out of the ICE. Look at Bottas, he still can do a decent qualifying, but drops back on races. And yes, the Force India is a low drag, low tire wear design. But since the V6T period, is saw more factory units blow, than customer units.
I think you can add some other items to that list.
3. At part throttle they run the MGU-K against the ICE to charge the the ES. No limit on consumption
4. For part of the lap they open the waste gates and help drive the MGU-H from the ES.
5. Maybe, they consume a little more oil than at other points in the weekend.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit
Posted: 29 Oct 2017, 23:15
by roon
Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑27 Oct 2017, 10:58
the Prius etc always operates within a fractional cycle ie 35%-70%-35%-70% charge to enable their warranted 8 year battery life
ie the Li ion battery has a life of 1000 full 0%-100%-0%-100% cycles or 3000 'Prius-fraction' cycles
this fractional cycle is why EVs have poor range ie the battery is deliberately oversized and underutilised
my guess - F1 ERS is fully utilised ie not oversized (has a full charge-discharge cycle) - and ERS minimum weight limit is based on this sizing
it is liquid-cooled to withstand the extremely high rates of charge and discharge
btw those silly old NiCad batteries have a life of 2000 full cycles
If this is the case, why is the energy density of batteries always spoken of as the limiting factor for mass-market adoption? Cheapness and not improved density could be the goal. A battery which is utilized more aggressively but replaced more often.