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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 18:04
by alexx_88
You need to see Mclaren's reaction from their perspective as well. I'm pretty sure that, while probably not written in the contract, the initial promises were that Honda will use 2015 to learn, 2016 they'll begin to be competitive and 2017 they'll battle for wins. That was the plan that everyone signed up for and we were told as much in the initial joint press conferences. Judging from everything we've seen, Mclaren delivered their end of the bargain, or at least to a larger extent than Honda. They had a good car, a good development team ready to take on 2017. Now, from their perspective, looking at Honda, there has been 0 relative progress in these 3 years. They started 2015 a long way back from the front and that's where they are now.
Mclaren has access to way more data than us. They probably know what's expected for spec 4 and at least have a good idea of what the Renault PU can do. In the long run, why would you assume that Honda can build a better PU than Renault, even though Renault upped its investment in F1 significantly? What would be the objective reasoning for thinking that? The objective facts right now are that the Renault PU kept a consistent advantage over the past 3 years and their investment is larger than Honda's.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 18:38
by loner
fellowhoodlums wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 17:54
time - can you design, build and fit your own gearbox in 5 months? Can you mate your own gearbox in that time period...yes....perhaps not perfectly at first.
i got it thnx
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 20:39
by PlatinumZealot
Andres125sx wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 18:02
J.A.W. wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 10:44
Andres125sx wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 08:54
Very interesting, thank you
So there are some special valves wich allow oil transfer between the low and high parts of the engine
What is specifically meant by "...high & low parts of the engine."?
Is it relating to basic engine architecture, or is it pressure, &/or temperature gradients, within the gas flow stream?
What HPD said, but exactly at the end of the video he talk about active valves to allow when they want that conexion so those gas/vapor (not sure what´s the correct term in english) can enter the intake... and the video finish without any futher detail
He´s implying the oil addition is not directly oil in liquid state, but its gas/vapor... is that correct?
Yes. Street cars suck oil through their vent pipes. Street car oil is detrimental to making power though. Severe knocking will ensue if the car burns too much oil.The oil in F1 could be specially formulated with additives to help combustion though... maybe..
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 20:50
by hemichromis
alexx_88 wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 18:04
You need to see Mclaren's reaction from their perspective as well. I'm pretty sure that, while probably not written in the contract, the initial promises were that Honda will use 2015 to learn, 2016 they'll begin to be competitive and 2017 they'll battle for wins. That was the plan that everyone signed up for and we were told as much in the initial joint press conferences. Judging from everything we've seen, Mclaren delivered their end of the bargain, or at least to a larger extent than Honda. They had a good car, a good development team ready to take on 2017. Now, from their perspective, looking at Honda, there has been 0 relative progress in these 3 years. They started 2015 a long way back from the front and that's where they are now.
Mclaren has access to way more data than us. They probably know what's expected for spec 4 and at least have a good idea of what the Renault PU can do. In the long run, why would you assume that Honda can build a better PU than Renault, even though Renault upped its investment in F1 significantly? What would be the objective reasoning for thinking that? The objective facts right now are that the Renault PU kept a consistent advantage over the past 3 years and their investment is larger than Honda's.
To some extent I agree but aren't Renault still hamstrung by there compressor still being at the back of the engine? In 2014 and 2015 all we kept hearing about is why the Mercedes is more powerful and most people were saying that the turbo configuration was a big part of it.
Do we know if Ferrari are still using a turbo at the back of the engine rather than a split turbo?
I think now most people put it to very advanced combustion but i'm still curious.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 21:28
by diffuser
alexx_88 wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 18:04
You need to see Mclaren's reaction from their perspective as well. I'm pretty sure that, while probably not written in the contract, the initial promises were that Honda will use 2015 to learn, 2016 they'll begin to be competitive and 2017 they'll battle for wins. That was the plan that everyone signed up for and we were told as much in the initial joint press conferences. Judging from everything we've seen, Mclaren delivered their end of the bargain, or at least to a larger extent than Honda. They had a good car, a good development team ready to take on 2017. Now, from their perspective, looking at Honda, there has been 0 relative progress in these 3 years. They started 2015 a long way back from the front and that's where they are now.
Mclaren has access to way more data than us. They probably know what's expected for spec 4 and at least have a good idea of what the Renault PU can do. In the long run, why would you assume that Honda can build a better PU than Renault, even though Renault upped its investment in F1 significantly? What would be the objective reasoning for thinking that? The objective facts right now are that the Renault PU kept a consistent advantage over the past 3 years and their investment is larger than Honda's.
Do we know how much of the investment from Renault goes into the car and how much into the PU ?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 21:54
by loner
we need to shed some light about this 25 hp figure will it be available for entire race in Singapore how many laps they used it in Monza , the epic saga was stronger than the ponies
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 08 Sep 2017, 22:00
by ZakB
According to Joe Saward Honda could even buy Mercedes technology, but they declined. He says the clash of cultures is the reason why this project has failed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irgl7Ef6wBM
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 03:01
by wuzak
hemichromis wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 20:50
To some extent I agree but aren't Renault still hamstrung by there compressor still being at the back of the engine? In 2014 and 2015 all we kept hearing about is why the Mercedes is more powerful and most people were saying that the turbo configuration was a big part of it.
Do we know if Ferrari are still using a turbo at the back of the engine rather than a split turbo?
I think now most people put it to very advanced combustion but i'm still curious.
Yes, Renault have the compressor together with the turbine at the back of the engine.
Ferrari have much the same, from what I understand. Originally it was a split turbo with MGUH between turbine and compressor, but with all positioned at the rear of the engine. Something like the pictures Mercedes teased us with in 2013.
https://simanaitissays.files.wordpress. ... tside1.jpg
No, the split turbo is not the holy grail of performance in these engines.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 03:13
by MrPotatoHead
Haven’t we addressed the Mercedes split turbo before?
The internet folklore of the split turbo being the key to the Mercedes advantage is hogwash.
It has a big packaging advantage and that’s it.
The Mercedes advantage was from years of extra research and planning. Time.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 07:16
by Wazari
I really don't want to criticize individual journalist but this guy is something else. Buy Mercedes technology???? Seriously??? Is Renault's failure to catch Mercedes because of their French ways....????
There's a saying in Japan,
He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 07:16
by Wazari
MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑09 Sep 2017, 03:13
Haven’t we addressed the Mercedes split turbo before?
The internet folklore of the split turbo being the key to the Mercedes advantage is hogwash.
It has a big packaging advantage and that’s it.
The Mercedes advantage was from years of extra research and planning. Time.
+1
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 07:56
by ziggy
Wazari wrote: ↑09 Sep 2017, 07:16
I really don't want to criticize individual journalist but this guy is something else. Buy Mercedes technology???? Seriously??? Is Renault's failure to catch Mercedes because of their French ways....????
There's a saying in Japan,
He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........
Um, sorry, but how can you compare Renault with Honda? Renault has scored some wins and is regulary on the podium. Also reliability wise Honda is nowhere near Renault.
Oh and about your saying with the giraffe testicles; who did promise catch up at the start of the season and wins later in the season? Three years in a row?
I dont want to bash anybody, but at least stay real...
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 08:03
by ziggy
MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑09 Sep 2017, 03:13
The Mercedes advantage was from years of extra research and planning...
on how to use lubricants as extra fuel.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 11:32
by Andres125sx
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 20:39
Andres125sx wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 18:02
J.A.W. wrote: ↑08 Sep 2017, 10:44
What is specifically meant by "...high & low parts of the engine."?
Is it relating to basic engine architecture, or is it pressure, &/or temperature gradients, within the gas flow stream?
What HPD said, but exactly at the end of the video he talk about active valves to allow when they want that conexion so those gas/vapor (not sure what´s the correct term in english) can enter the intake... and the video finish without any futher detail
He´s implying the oil addition is not directly oil in liquid state, but its gas/vapor... is that correct?
Yes. Street cars suck oil through their vent pipes. Street car oil is detrimental to making power though. Severe knocking will ensue if the car burns too much oil.The oil in F1 could be specially formulated with additives to help combustion though... maybe..
Thanks Platinum!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 09 Sep 2017, 11:49
by ZakB
Wazari wrote: ↑09 Sep 2017, 07:16
I really don't want to criticize individual journalist but this guy is something else. Buy Mercedes technology???? Seriously??? Is Renault's failure to catch Mercedes because of their French ways....????
There's a saying in Japan,
He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........
He has pretty good sources within McLaren, so I expect that it was actually the case. SkySports talked about the same thing some time ago. Saward also reported a long time ago that McLaren wants to switch to Renault. I don't know why, but the people supporting Honda get offended quite quickly when you criticize the company and they immediately start making comparisons with Renault, while I saw one of the RB cars overtaking the Ferrari at Monza.