F1technical.net

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 20:39

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 18:02

J.A.W. wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 10:44

What is specifically meant by "...high & low parts of the engine."?
Is it relating to basic engine architecture, or is it pressure, &/or temperature gradients, within the gas flow stream?

What HPD said, but exactly at the end of the video he talk about active valves to allow when they want that conexion so those gas/vapor (not sure what´s the correct term in english) can enter the intake... and the video finish without any futher detail

He´s implying the oil addition is not directly oil in liquid state, but its gas/vapor... is that correct?

Yes. Street cars suck oil through their vent pipes. Street car oil is detrimental to making power though. Severe knocking will ensue if the car burns too much oil.The oil in F1 could be specially formulated with additives to help combustion though... maybe..

I doubt it would be difficult. The ultra-lean combustion on these cars is not that prone to detonation. If they can get something that burns into the engine, on top of the 100 kg/hr (or whatever the latest number is) they will grab it with glee.

fellowhoodlums wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 17:54

time - can you design, build and fit your own gearbox in 5 months? Can you mate your own gearbox in that time period...yes....perhaps not perfectly at first.

Well I'm not entirely certain about this, but I don't believe TR builds it's own gearboxes.
I can understand why McLaren might not want to supply TR with a Gearbox as they probably don't want design tricks in their gearboxes leaking to Red Bull proper.

taperoo2k wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 13:02

fellowhoodlums wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 17:54

time - can you design, build and fit your own gearbox in 5 months? Can you mate your own gearbox in that time period...yes....perhaps not perfectly at first.

Well I'm not entirely certain about this, but I don't believe TR builds it's own gearboxes.
I can understand why McLaren might not want to supply TR with a Gearbox as they probably don't want design tricks in their gearboxes leaking to Red Bull proper.

YES, TR build their own gearboxes. Well, at least the casings. The gears come from Red Bull.

ziggy wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 08:03

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 03:13

The Mercedes advantage was from years of extra research and planning...

on how to use lubricants as extra fuel.

The oil burning is as over hyped as the Mercedes split turbo.

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 16:33

ziggy wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 08:03

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 03:13

The Mercedes advantage was from years of extra research and planning...

on how to use lubricants as extra fuel.

The oil burning is as over hyped as the Mercedes split turbo.

This.
Every engine has dozens of such 'little' novelties - we just don't get to know about them.
They all add up but neither makes or breaks an engine.

I do sometimes wonder whether Honda and Merc actually regret going for the split turbo..

Mudflap wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 16:54

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 16:33

ziggy wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 08:03

on how to use lubricants as extra fuel.

The oil burning is as over hyped as the Mercedes split turbo.

This.
Every engine has dozens of such 'little' novelties - we just don't get to know about them.
They all add up but neither makes or breaks an engine.

I do sometimes wonder whether Honda and Merc actually regret going for the split turbo..

I doubt they regret it because it does have some packaging and intercooler piping benefits. The downside is it takes a lot more work to swap out the MGU-H / turbo assembly. A whole lot more work.

I doubt they do. What i still see with the mercedes though; from 2014, is what appears to be a huge ass turbine.
The MGUH is still a differentiator and also the combustion. That seems to be the edge mercedes enjoys over the others.
Friction in the honda engine is actually quite a surprise. I don't know how they know the friction in the other engine suppliers for them to believe they have a friction problem.
Given the rules its hard to imagine where the problem is. Their short crank design maybe?

gruntguru wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 12:37

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 20:39

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 18:02

What HPD said, but exactly at the end of the video he talk about active valves to allow when they want that conexion so those gas/vapor (not sure what´s the correct term in english) can enter the intake... and the video finish without any further detail

He´s implying the oil addition is not directly oil in liquid state, but its gas/vapor... is that correct?

Yes. Street cars suck oil through their vent pipes. Street car oil is detrimental to making power though. Severe knocking will ensue if the car burns too much oil.The oil in F1 could be specially formulated with additives to help combustion though... maybe..

I doubt it would be difficult. The ultra-lean combustion on these cars is not that prone to detonation. If they can get something that burns into the engine, on top of the 100 kg/hr (or whatever the latest number is) they will grab it with glee.

Q. Why is it necessary that oil would be used purely for combustion. Why not use the 'cloud' to remove heat from the chamber, in the same way that you would use over-fuelling?

Re: friction. I have posted a few papers on nanomaterials used as friction reducers. The paper: lubricants-020004 has a rather interesting appendix, especially if you are talking about oil as fuel. Think base! Not particularly mentioned, is the idea of using nano metal particles. These have different phases. Initially they surface fill, before becoming a 'conventional' friction reducer. The take away for nanomaterials is simply that friction should not be a problem in a race engine.

http://dropcanvas.com/wf3g5 available for 7 days.

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 17:23

Mudflap wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 16:54

MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 16:33

The oil burning is as over hyped as the Mercedes split turbo.

This.
Every engine has dozens of such 'little' novelties - we just don't get to know about them.
They all add up but neither makes or breaks an engine.

I do sometimes wonder whether Honda and Merc actually regret going for the split turbo..

I doubt they regret it because it does have some packaging and intercooler piping benefits. The downside is it takes a lot more work to swap out the MGU-H / turbo assembly. A whole lot more work.

I do agree about the benefits - but they have really struggled to get it to work reliably. And then Botas' gave up the ghost. Not to mention all the failures Honda have and they don't even enjoy the advantage of a turbo unit that sits as low.

It looks as though in the grand scheme of things it poses more problems than it solves.

Which leads me to another point regarding Honda's design philosophy:
They seem to be inclined to find overly complex solutions to fairly simple problems - remember the hollow connecting rods which were meant to cure rod torsional vibration ? The likes of Cosworth somehow got away with higher engines speeds and standard rods.
Or the crazy piston designs which proved to be a dead end. Or the size zero concept.

Maybe there is a point where pragmatism trumps creativity - when you have to just stick something on dyno, prove it out and race it rather than chase the perfect design. Or else you risk wasting years without any real progress.

ZakB wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 11:49

He has pretty good sources within McLaren, ....

He was wrong about Alonso (not) signing with them. To suggest it is cultural differences responsible for the projects failure is frankly, absurd.

There are many problems whit Honda engine but the biggest one is that Mercedes is still bringing 30HP updates.

GoranF1 wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 23:57

There are many problems whit Honda engine but the biggest one is that Mercedes is still bringing 30HP updates.

You really think they are still finding 3% more power with every update?

Wazari wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 07:16

ZakB wrote: ↑

08 Sep 2017, 22:00

According to Joe Saward Honda could even buy Mercedes technology, but they declined. He says the clash of cultures is the reason why this project has failed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irgl7Ef6wBM

I really don't want to criticize individual journalist but this guy is something else. Buy Mercedes technology???? Seriously??? Is Renault's failure to catch Mercedes because of their French ways....????

There's a saying in Japan, He might be higher than testicles on a giraffe...........

You didn't see the ebay auction?

GoranF1 wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 23:57

There are many problems whit Honda engine but the biggest one is that Mercedes is still bringing 30HP updates.

Sure . . and that's why Ferrari is up thier gluteus maximus every race!

Anyway folks. The honda engine will have a new home for 2018. The toro rosso team thread needs to make some room for all the unwanted guests!

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

10 Sep 2017, 00:41

GoranF1 wrote: ↑

09 Sep 2017, 23:57

There are many problems whit Honda engine but the biggest one is that Mercedes is still bringing 30HP updates.

Sure . . and that's why Ferrari is up thier gluteus maximus every race!

Anyway folks. The honda engine will have a new home for 2018. The toro rosso team thread needs to make some room for all the unwanted guests!

Did you see the last race? They were struggling to hang on to there coattails, infact nearly both of them got beaten by a Renault powered Redbull starting from the back.
Ferrari isn't Honda. Honda would be lucky to get near them let alone Mercedes.