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zac510 wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2017, 10:04

Yes I acknowledged that compromise in my original post, but if you're STR or FI, forever mid-pack team with only a chance of a podium at best once or twice a year, you're not often in clean air. Being able to pass cars might a massive asset. Not so much an asset for Mercedes!

Yea but again it makes little sense.
It´s not an asset unless it´s a side effect of running the most optimal aero package you have.

Well it makes sense to me, but I'm assuming that some clean air performance can be traded for non-clean air performance, which may simply not be possible.

You mentioned optimal aero package but the optimal package can be changed by changing the optimal test conditions -it's completely discretionary. 20 years ago they didn't test cars in the wind tunnel in yaw (very often) whereas now they test every new aero part in yaw. If they haven't started already perhaps it's time to start testing the car in turbulent conditions more often. Optimal conditions will become a mixture of clean air and turbulent air wind tunnel runs and the aero parts that perform best in both of those will be the new optimal aero package.

The problem with trying to design for both clean air and turbulent air is that both performances will be compromised.

By designing for clean air you get the maximum possible performance from the car. You then should qualify well (driver and other issues not withstanding) and race in cleaner air. You run your strategy to ensure you pit out in to good air too. This gives you the best overall race performance.

By designing for bad air, you will likely reduce the overall performance and so qualify less well. You will then run in bad air which won't hurt you as much, of course. But your overall race performance will be worse.

Yes that's true, I can see that side of the argument. However if in 2017, DRS effect is decreased and we get only 1-stop races, I would not want to immediately dismiss the importance of in-traffic performance for a midfield team.
Similarly the more the FIA regulate the cars to encourage overtaking, the less the teams will need to design the cars for turbulent air performance.

zac510 wrote: ↑

07 Apr 2017, 10:50

Yes that's true, I can see that side of the argument. However if in 2017, DRS effect is decreased and we get only 1-stop races, I would not want to immediately dismiss the importance of in-traffic performance for a midfield team.
Similarly the more the FIA regulate the cars to encourage overtaking, the less the teams will need to design the cars for turbulent air performance.

But all you will do with this better-overtake-car is overtake cars you would have started ahead of had you gone with optimal clean air aero.
Then once you´re past those cars, you find yourself going slower than a clean air-package trying to catch the next pack because you´re running sub-optimal aero for clean air.

Well, with drivers complaining about how difficult is to get into DRS zone because of the DF reduction when they are within 2 seconds of the car in front, I guess all the doubts have been solved.

2017 rules are a step (or two) backwards if they were aiming a increase in on-track overtakes


F1 fans must decide what do they want, fast cars or lots of overtakes, because both are incompatible, downforce levels and number of overtakes are inversely proportional parameters

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 11:53

Well, with drivers complaining about how difficult is to get into DRS zone because of the DF reduction when they are within 2 seconds of the car in front, I guess all the doubts have been solved.

2017 rules are a step (or two) backwards if they were aiming a increase in on-track overtakes


F1 fans must decide what do they want, fast cars or lots of overtakes, because both are incompatible, downforce levels and number of overtakes are inversely proportional parameters

not quite true. The biggest reason for the inability to keep up close is the because of the reliance on the wings for downforce. Indy next year will have new cars that rely more on the floor for grip. If F1 relies more on the floor and mech grip they can have both

Sochi track definitely needs to run closer to the walls than what it is now. The track layout is just not right.

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 11:53

Well, with drivers complaining about how difficult is to get into DRS zone because of the DF reduction when they are within 2 seconds of the car in front, I guess all the doubts have been solved.

2017 rules are a step (or two) backwards if they were aiming a increase in on-track overtakes


F1 fans must decide what do they want, fast cars or lots of overtakes, because both are incompatible, downforce levels and number of overtakes are inversely proportional parameters

We saw a 4X wdc hunt down a Merc and get under 1 second a few times in the final laps of Sochi. The driver he was chasing was fighting for his first win.

I'd rather have that only happen a handful of times then a bunch of nonesense DRS passes.

FW17 wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 17:58

Sochi track definitely needs to run closer to the walls than what it is now. The track layout is just not right.

It's a good track from a driver's perspective, just hard to overtake, if you want to get angry over a track, try Mexico. There will be zero passing there this year, in fact Barcelona is going to be impossible to pass as well seeing how much more aero dependent the cars are now.

Active aero and suspension.. with design in general being more and more 'organic'... why not?

SR71 wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 18:07

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 11:53

Well, with drivers complaining about how difficult is to get into DRS zone because of the DF reduction when they are within 2 seconds of the car in front, I guess all the doubts have been solved.

2017 rules are a step (or two) backwards if they were aiming a increase in on-track overtakes


F1 fans must decide what do they want, fast cars or lots of overtakes, because both are incompatible, downforce levels and number of overtakes are inversely proportional parameters

We saw a 4X wdc hunt down a Merc and get under 1 second a few times in the final laps of Sochi. The driver he was chasing was fighting for his first win.

I'd rather have that only happen a handful of times then a bunch of nonesense DRS passes.

3 real overtakes and a hunt for first place is much better than 35 passes on the back straight on cars that have no way of defending...

cplchanb wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 17:24

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 11:53

Well, with drivers complaining about how difficult is to get into DRS zone because of the DF reduction when they are within 2 seconds of the car in front, I guess all the doubts have been solved.

2017 rules are a step (or two) backwards if they were aiming a increase in on-track overtakes


F1 fans must decide what do they want, fast cars or lots of overtakes, because both are incompatible, downforce levels and number of overtakes are inversely proportional parameters

not quite true. The biggest reason for the inability to keep up close is the because of the reliance on the wings for downforce. Indy next year will have new cars that rely more on the floor for grip. If F1 relies more on the floor and mech grip they can have both

Maybe you didn´t notice, but that was the aim for this season rules increasing the diffuser and tires to improve mechanical grip, and you can see the result

I wonder if the person who downvoted my post arguing misinformation is really informed or if he´s the one misinformed

No aero solution will solve the aero problem. Maybe a fan car could as that´s the only aero solution wich can create DF independently of the clean or turbulent air in front of him, but any other aero solution relies on the air the car pass through, so if it´s dirty air the car will never be able to create same DF than the car in front who is in clean air.


This thread is about 2017 aero rules, wich many people including myself was wondering if they would really improve overtaking or not. Now we can affirm they´ve gone backwards overtaking wise, but someone does think I´m misinformed because of stating the obvious

Get informed before accusing people of misinformation

SR71 wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 18:07

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

01 May 2017, 11:53

Well, with drivers complaining about how difficult is to get into DRS zone because of the DF reduction when they are within 2 seconds of the car in front, I guess all the doubts have been solved.

2017 rules are a step (or two) backwards if they were aiming a increase in on-track overtakes


F1 fans must decide what do they want, fast cars or lots of overtakes, because both are incompatible, downforce levels and number of overtakes are inversely proportional parameters

We saw a 4X wdc hunt down a Merc and get under 1 second a few times in the final laps of Sochi. The driver he was chasing was fighting for his first win.

I'd rather have that only happen a handful of times then a bunch of nonesense DRS passes.

Who told you we must choose between those two options?

Maybe you got excited those final laps, but to me it was pretty obvious only a mistake from Bottas could change the outcome. That mistake was not out of question tough, but that´s not rule´s merit, but Bottas weakness, he´s prone to fail under pressure

I hate DRS, plain and simple, but I´m not sure who convice you we must choose between nosense DRS overtake or this boredom. If those are the only options I´d rather stop watching F1