Page 791 of 1331
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 24 Oct 2017, 09:58
by Snorked
1158 wrote: ↑24 Oct 2017, 00:04
Thanks for cleaning this up.
Have we heard if it was a shaft issue again? I know Honda was having issues with a new design for the MGU-H shaft so they reverted to the previous design. I wonder if they were trying a revised version of the new shaft. VAN lost 2 MGU-H over the weekend I believe and of course ALO lost his in the race.
If it was a shaft failure that part can be replaced without a penalty, but it can't be done at the track.
A return of rotational issues according to Hasegawa:
Although it was similar to the problem that occurred in Bahrain etc. in the first half of the season, I do not know the cause yet
the cooling water pressure of the MGU - H dropped, the control computer which detected it automatically stopped the operation of the MGU - H
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2017 ... ports-moto
"Both Vandoorne and Alonso's problems seem like the same problem, but I do not know exactly, it looks like a rotation problem."
https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2017 ... rtcom-moto
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 24 Oct 2017, 19:48
by PlatinumZealot
Hino wrote: ↑24 Oct 2017, 07:19
ringo wrote: ↑24 Oct 2017, 05:48
It begs the question what processes are they using to bring developments onto the track. It cannot be "try until you get it right". They must have some rigorous testing they do before they approve a part for track use. It's shocking if they lose a mguh shaft every weekend.
After 1 shaft failure the process should have been improved to prevent that from happening again or so often.
But i await the details on this.
Overall though i feel the engine has imrpoved during the race. Its still slow on the straights but the drivability seems to be improved.
IIRC, Honda outsourced a supplier to produce the MGU-H shafts and blamed botched machining for the failures. Honda then approached Honda aviation dept (jet engines) to manufacturer those shafts. So it seems they still have a problem.
That doesn't add up. Surely they are using CNC machines and computerized machines for hardening?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 24 Oct 2017, 19:52
by dren
I figured it was more to do with high speed balancing of the rotating components.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 24 Oct 2017, 19:56
by PlatinumZealot
I think it is design errors. Somebody just didn't get the design to work 100%. It might be only a slight tolerance change. Maybe different material composition here or there. Some sort of harmonic effect. I think these little things are the things that take mechanical engineers by surprise more than the big obvious ones.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 24 Oct 2017, 20:15
by taperoo2k
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑24 Oct 2017, 19:56
I think it is design errors. Somebody just didn't get the design to work 100%. It might be only a slight tolerance change. Maybe different material composition here or there. Some sort of harmonic effect. I think these little things are the things that take mechanical engineers by surprise more than the big obvious ones.
Well if it's a design flaw, then it's probably not going to be picked up until the part is in the car (honda's correlation between test benches and the track is still not where it should be). Honda probably have to look at the whole process of PU design/Manufacturing, and see where they might have gone wrong. Or it could be due to the shaft not being installed in the correct way. All things, I'm sure Honda will be looking at.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 24 Oct 2017, 23:02
by ncassi22
dren wrote: ↑24 Oct 2017, 19:52
I figured it was more to do with high speed balancing of the rotating components.
Maybe they use Kobe steel
#tongue in cheek
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 24 Oct 2017, 23:41
by 63l8qrrfy6
Wasn't it the K shaft rather than the H that had manufacturing issues ?
The 'rotating' problem as described by Hasegawa is as vague as it gets. Honda should at least give a better account of their failures to keep us entertained or else this thread will inevitably degenerate into spec 4, +5 hp, 309kph, no power/ no reliability.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 00:36
by DFX
A 'rotating' problem in an engine is like a boat with a floating problem
But seriously, could it be the friction problems that they stated before?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 03:35
by Singabule
Rotational issue would occur if the shaft is bend to certain degree out of design tolerance, and can be solved only with major redesign or change in material property. Sigh, i hope Honda poach merc engineer to solve this issue...
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 06:47
by Wazari
MGU-H problems are related to operating temp issues.
Not sure if I am allowed to mention anything about the "Spec 4" PU, but the complete Spec 4 PU will not be run in any races this season. Some components may be installed in the current "Spec 3" platform but not the complete "Spec 4". Yes, there are Spec 4 PU's built and tested.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 06:55
by Hino
Wazari wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 06:47
MGU-H problems are related to operating temp issues.
Not sure if I am allowed to mention anything about the "Spec 4" PU, but the complete Spec 4 PU will not be run in any races this season. Some components may be installed in the current "Spec 3" platform but not the complete "Spec 4". Yes, there are Spec 4 PU's built and tested.
Thanks for that clarification!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 07:20
by Thunder
Wazari wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 06:47
MGU-H problems are related to operating temp issues.
Not sure if I am allowed to mention anything about the "Spec 4" PU, but the complete Spec 4 PU will not be run in any races this season. Some components may be installed in the current "Spec 3" platform but not the complete "Spec 4". Yes, there are Spec 4 PU's built and tested.
Of course you can, as long as there are some technical bits in your post about said Spec that make it worth discussing.
It's just the "hey, rumours are spec 4 will get introduced" Posts followed by 2 pages of Fun and Games about Honda that will get deleted.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 07:27
by Singabule
Wazari wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 06:47
MGU-H problems are related to operating temp issues.
Not sure if I am allowed to mention anything about the "Spec 4" PU, but the complete Spec 4 PU will not be run in any races this season. Some components may be installed in the current "Spec 3" platform but not the complete "Spec 4". Yes, there are Spec 4 PU's built and tested.
Austin is not as Hot as sepang, why the operating temperature force mguh to failure here, and the full throttle is not as high as suzuka too.. Just wondering if the tolerance just too small
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 07:54
by Dimi
Track requirements will affect mguh much more than the ambient temp.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 08:31
by makecry
Hino wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 06:55
Wazari wrote: ↑25 Oct 2017, 06:47
MGU-H problems are related to operating temp issues.
Not sure if I am allowed to mention anything about the "Spec 4" PU, but the complete Spec 4 PU will not be run in any races this season. Some components may be installed in the current "Spec 3" platform but not the complete "Spec 4". Yes, there are Spec 4 PU's built and tested.
Thanks for that clarification!
But I dont get the point. Dyno to track correlation issues have been very well known. If the Spec 4 is as good as everyone seems to talk about, why not put in the PU, show McLaren that they were wrong and get some real world testing too?
Are the components modular though? Can you put one component from the spec4 into "current" spec and it will just work out of box?