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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 00:21
by FrukostScones
So they continue with this Years overall design only some minor changes? We need true Spec 4 for long term success. No Honda money for McLaren parts!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 00:23
by GhostF1
Wazari wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 00:02
GhostF1 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 13:44
Well this year has certainly been a "unique" one. I wonder if maybe Wazari could share any insights he may have on the general mood at Honda and their confidence in their 2018 PU. The first time running a second iteration of a current engine layout, surely the mood for 2018 is a good one?
The mood at Honda is very upbeat according to my nephew. I am no longer at Sakura. I hear there is a sense of relief and great optimism for the upcoming season. After the season is over and the marriage is finally done, I will post about what I feel are the mistakes made by both parties.
That is excellent to hear! I'm glad Honda are feeling much more optimistic and relieved for next season. Behind all the scathing reports and public McLaren/Honda "disagreements", I have a huge respect for what they have managed to achieve in the time they have done. The engineering feat is astonishing with everything that was happening in the background. So kudos to yourself, your nephew and Honda for fighting the good fight!
Onwards and upwards!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 01:01
by j.yank
Wazari wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 00:09
MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 21:16
Wazari wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 08:36
The casing the houses the shaft is part of the block and time to swap the MGU-H would be extremely time consuming. Don't ask me why it was designed this way. Spec 4 is not.
Also - if the Spec 3 vs Spec 4 units are really that much different it makes more sense why the "Spec 4" unit was never run in the car this year.
I think it should be given a different name though, Spec 3 vs Spec 4 sounds like just another iteration of the same engine. If the Engine Block is different then it should be given a completely different engine designation.
They are quite different and I will go into greater detail after the season is over. I will say this, the current Spec 3.XXX series PU is a mish-mash of HRD, McLaren (MAT), outside consultants and internal consultants. IMO this will never work. Too many cooks in the kitchen. The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure. The Spec 4 PU has a different block, internals, MGU-H, etc. The Spec 4 heads will mate to the current PU.
Does it mean that they will start the new season again from scratch?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 01:06
by bigblue
Wazari wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 00:09
The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure.
So what do the points of debate here concern ? Would love to hear that now, but you can can add that to your after-season roundup if you want, I expect that post at 15:00 Sun 26th
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 01:26
by 63l8qrrfy6
ziggy wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 21:10
MrPotatoHead wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 16:43
Wazari wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 08:36
The casing the houses the shaft is part of the block and time to swap the MGU-H would be extremely time consuming. Don't ask me why it was designed this way. Spec 4 is not.
Yeah I had a feeling this was the case.
Makes some sense from packaging and rigidity, but makes no sense from a maintenance / repair stand point.
Explains why they just swap the whole unit.
And if anyone has had a turbo fail you'll know they have a high chance of causing damage to the ICE, especially if it's on the compressor side.
At the end of the day the engine is designed to be modular and is easier to replace it all.
If only they were not penalized for such problems.
This is one of the things I don't understand. The whole MGUH + turbo + compressor should be made as a separate unit in a separate housing and should be "floating" on springs or some kind of dampers. This way it would be isolated from the whole car stress. Offcourse packaging wise this would be a nightmare, but should be doable. Also separate parts should be changeable, so a failure of only 1 component doesen't result in a whole unit change.
Surely there were some reasons for this way, maybe cooling or packaging?
Very well put. The turbo should be isolated from engine thermal expansion, block bending due to chassis loads and engine vibration. I see no reason why the turbo would be solidly mounted.
Cooling-wise ,hoses with plug fittings are the norm in motorsport and can be used to move any fluid in and out of the turbo any way they desire. Packaging wise the turbo is still waaaay higher that Merc's so no big benefit there either.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 03:53
by Hino
Mudflap wrote: ↑15 Nov 2017, 22:50
Question:
Earlier in the season Honda were claiming that the ICE was pretty much spot on and they only had TC/MGUH issues. Is it me or they are struggling with the ICE too based on the number of units they have used so far ?
Of course it is masked by the appalling TC/H reliability, but the 9/10 units per driver seem to indicate a pretty serious issue there too.
Does anyone recall any rumors on ICE failures ?
There is one special occasion that I can recollect seeing an
ICE failure was during practice at the Spanish GP.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 13:37
by nzjrs
Wazari wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 00:09
They are quite different and I will go into greater detail after the season is over. I will say this, the current Spec 3.XXX series PU is a mish-mash of HRD, McLaren (MAT), outside consultants and internal consultants. IMO this will never work. Too many cooks in the kitchen. The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure. The Spec 4 PU has a different block, internals, MGU-H, etc. The Spec 4 heads will mate to the current PU.
Hmm
The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure
There is a world of difference here between "think" and "thought". I hope it's closer to "thought" - meaning the architectural path that McHonda didn't take in 2017 (due to presumibly political reasons that I hope Wazari to cover in time).
If the meaning is closer to "think" - current - then I hope this is still the same Spec 4 that has been running intensively on Dynos in Sakura and is thus rather well tested. I would be a little concerned if the experts (not "experts") are still concerned about this Spec4 because it might be another risky start-from-scratch engineering path Honda takes in 2018.
Wazari San, would you mind clarifying a little here?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 13:55
by 1158
Having experts in quotes makes me think Wazari is referring to the those outside the company claiming Honda can't be successful in F1 without outside help.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 15:03
by nzjrs
1158 wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 13:55
Having experts in quotes makes me think Wazari is referring to the those outside the company claiming Honda can't be successful in F1 without outside help.
That's what I hope. It would be great to see a resurgent proud Honda in 2018!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 18:11
by PlatinumZealot
Wazari wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 00:09
They are quite different and I will go into greater detail after the season is over. I will say this, the current Spec 3.XXX series PU is a mish-mash of HRD, McLaren (MAT), outside consultants and internal consultants. IMO this will never work. Too many cooks in the kitchen. The "Spec 4" PU is more of the "Honda way" which all the "experts" think is doomed for failure. The Spec 4 PU has a different block, internals, MGU-H, etc.
The Spec 4 heads will mate to the current PU.
Yeah that's the Honda way for sure!
What do you call that frankestien? B16B head on B20 block? lol
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 19:24
by godlameroso
Popular mod with k24s is to use k20 heads as they have VTEC on both cams.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Nov 2017, 22:36
by Wazari
1158 wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 13:55
Having experts in quotes makes me think Wazari is referring to the those outside the company claiming Honda can't be successful in F1 without outside help.
That is pretty much it.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 18 Nov 2017, 06:55
by damager21
Really hope Honda can turn it around in 2018. We want all engine manufacturers to be close to each other in terms of performance leading to a good fight at the top and mid-field too.
I don't believe Honda will test their 2018 engine with McLaren at the Abu Dhabi test. This for sure will be a limitation as every other engine manufacturer I am sure will bring in evolution of their current engine at the test.
Renault may opt to test latest engine with Renault and Red Bull team with 2017 engine at test for Torro Rosso. Honda is badly stuck and lagging behind thanks to only 1 team using their engine. Need more teams and more mileage to expedite learning curve and progress
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 18 Nov 2017, 09:51
by GhostF1
damager21 wrote: ↑18 Nov 2017, 06:55
Really hope Honda can turn it around in 2018. We want all engine manufacturers to be close to each other in terms of performance leading to a good fight at the top and mid-field too.
I don't believe Honda will test their 2018 engine with McLaren at the Abu Dhabi test. This for sure will be a limitation as every other engine manufacturer I am sure will bring in evolution of their current engine at the test.
Renault may opt to test latest engine with Renault and Red Bull team with 2017 engine at test for Torro Rosso. Honda is badly stuck and lagging behind thanks to only 1 team using their engine. Need more teams and more mileage to expedite learning curve and progress
Mmmm STR12-H anyone haha
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 18 Nov 2017, 10:55
by utrejch
Wazari wrote: ↑17 Nov 2017, 00:02
GhostF1 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2017, 13:44
Well this year has certainly been a "unique" one. I wonder if maybe Wazari could share any insights he may have on the general mood at Honda and their confidence in their 2018 PU. The first time running a second iteration of a current engine layout, surely the mood for 2018 is a good one?
The mood at Honda is very upbeat according to my nephew. I am no longer at Sakura. I hear there is a sense of relief and great optimism for the upcoming season. After the season is over and the marriage is finally done, I will post about what I feel are the mistakes made by both parties.
Oh, really, not again!
Wazari wrote: ↑04 Mar 2017, 21:22
My inbox has been flooded. Sorry can not answer you all but seems centered on a few things.
...
4. I am still excited about this season. I am optimistic, anxious and happy with the new PU. Spec 0.8, 0.9, 1.0 and 1.1.
Best wishes everyone.
Wazari wrote: ↑23 Dec 2015, 16:53
We have the saying,
keisan wa kantan, tsukuri wa muzukashii; calculations are easy, implementation is complicated.
...
I think the other teams are much closer to running at full deployment throughout the race and McLaren is nowhere close to it. I do know engineers at Honda are very pleased with their latest ICE test results and feel the ICE's power output lacks nothing to the other teams.