F1technical.net

ArcticWolfie wrote: ↑

26 Nov 2017, 18:35

I saw Alonso overtaking Massa today... on the straight

Alonso sat behind Massa for the last 2 races even with DRS.

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

25 Nov 2017, 21:42

According to Martin Brundle the Ferrari is 2% down on Mercedes, the Renault is 6% down and the Honda is 11% down. Didn't say where it is fuel efficiecny averages over the season, or raw power, or race trim.. so it is anyone's guess the context of it, but it is still very alarming.

I too am alarmed by numbers without context. In fact, I'm 10% more afraid now than I was before reading your comment (general fear, not F1 related), and I'm at least 5% less confident in Honda's potential to improve next season. If anyone can proved some non-scary numbers it will be greatly appreciated. I await anxiously.

JonoNic wrote: ↑

26 Nov 2017, 19:25

Mr. Wazari. The season is over. We eagerly await your promised response from you.

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

After hear Vettel shouting on saving fuel badly, im very confident that wazari fuel amount is correct. So do i, cant wait for wazari comment and insight.

Was it the ICE they were referring to?

Mercedes: ~750 hp from ICE
so that means;
Ferrari: 735 hp
Renault: 705 hp
Honda : 667hp

I believe the numbers. Before i was aware of TJI technology, and the extreme compression ratios that are employed, doing my little spread sheet engine calculation back in 2014 resulted in the lower six hundred horsepower bracket. So i believe that honda is in that upper region of the six hundreds now. It seems they haven't fully exploited the direct inject technology that is TJI; they are just running some kind of lean combustion tech that doesn't yield the results that mercedes have been able to extract. If you asked me in 2014, i would take 670hp as the maximum you can squeeze out; but the TJI seems to have opened a whole new envelope.

By the what boost pressure are Mercedes really using?

roon wrote: ↑

26 Nov 2017, 23:04

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

25 Nov 2017, 21:42

According to Martin Brundle the Ferrari is 2% down on Mercedes, the Renault is 6% down and the Honda is 11% down. Didn't say where it is fuel efficiecny averages over the season, or raw power, or race trim.. so it is anyone's guess the context of it, but it is still very alarming.

I too am alarmed by numbers without context. In fact, I'm 10% more afraid now than I was before reading your comment (general fear, not F1 related), and I'm at least 5% less confident in Honda's potential to improve next season. If anyone can proved some non-scary numbers it will be greatly appreciated. I await anxiously.

If i heard correctly it was more about 2.4% Ferrari, 5.4% for Renault and 11.6% for Honda. Based on GPS data a "team" provided to MB. Pretty scary numbers Honda has to over come.

Alonso hit "Qualifying Mode" for Massa overtake apparently.

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... ype=-1&rn=

Singabule wrote:

JonoNic wrote: ↑

26 Nov 2017, 19:25

Mr. Wazari. The season is over. We eagerly await your promised response from you.

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

After hear Vettel shouting on saving fuel badly, im very confident that wazari fuel amount is correct. So do i, cant wait for wazari comment and insight.

I was more referring to his insight on the recently divorced Mclaren and Honda.

Sent from my SM-A700F using Tapatalk

ringo wrote: ↑

27 Nov 2017, 04:11

Was it the ICE they were referring to?

Mercedes: ~750 hp from ICE
so that means;
Ferrari: 735 hp
Renault: 705 hp
Honda : 667hp

I believe the numbers. Before i was aware of TJI technology, and the extreme compression ratios that are employed, doing my little spread sheet engine calculation back in 2014 resulted in the lower six hundred horsepower bracket. So i believe that honda is in that upper region of the six hundreds now. It seems they haven't fully exploited the direct inject technology that is TJI; they are just running some kind of lean combustion tech that doesn't yield the results that mercedes have been able to extract. If you asked me in 2014, i would take 670hp as the maximum you can squeeze out; but the TJI seems to have opened a whole new envelope.

By the what boost pressure are Mercedes really using?

Brundle's judging about power difference based on gps data and without the required data about drag levels gives inaccurate estimation about power difference.
and u have considering all deficit in your calculation down to ICE, where is the effect of mgu-h?

amho wrote: ↑

27 Nov 2017, 08:50

ringo wrote: ↑

27 Nov 2017, 04:11

Was it the ICE they were referring to?

Mercedes: ~750 hp from ICE
so that means;
Ferrari: 735 hp
Renault: 705 hp
Honda : 667hp

I believe the numbers. Before i was aware of TJI technology, and the extreme compression ratios that are employed, doing my little spread sheet engine calculation back in 2014 resulted in the lower six hundred horsepower bracket. So i believe that honda is in that upper region of the six hundreds now. It seems they haven't fully exploited the direct inject technology that is TJI; they are just running some kind of lean combustion tech that doesn't yield the results that mercedes have been able to extract. If you asked me in 2014, i would take 670hp as the maximum you can squeeze out; but the TJI seems to have opened a whole new envelope.

By the what boost pressure are Mercedes really using?

Brundle's judging about power difference based on gps data and without the required data about drag levels gives inaccurate estimation about power difference.
and u have considering all deficit in your calculation down to ICE, where is the effect of mgu-h?

While it's true Brundle probably has zero data relating to drag on each car, based on him saying he was shocked at how much data each team has on each other and how much they can estimate and the fact it looks like deployment strategies were track position based and automated, it's feasible to assume most teams are deploying at the same points on the track, give or take several metres. They all have more than enough resources to determine the best areas to deploy. So if these numbers came from Merc for example, they would likely be starting with that, "ok so their deployment is here and not here, so here they are likely on ICE alone" etc etc. It's all best guess. Not gospel.

Whatever the numbers are based on, I wouldn't call it fact, but you can be damn sure it's probably a very educated guess, one far more educated than anything we have speculated on these forums.

ArcticWolfie wrote: ↑

26 Nov 2017, 18:35

I saw Alonso overtaking Massa today... on the straight

And did you see all the previous laps before the pitstop with Massa moving away from the McHonda even when Alonso was into his slipstream and with DRS?

Andres125sx wrote: ↑

27 Nov 2017, 09:52

ArcticWolfie wrote: ↑

26 Nov 2017, 18:35

I saw Alonso overtaking Massa today... on the straight

And did you see all the previous laps before the pitstop with Massa moving away from the McHonda even when Alonso was into his slipstream and with DRS?

Williams and Force India have minimum downforce and drag coefficients that make possible to have better speed traps even than their works team, while McLaren maybe have the biggest drag and downforce coefficients. How do you expect they to overtake Williams on the straights?

I posted this in the team thread bit I suppose it is relevant to the PU.

Using the figures Brundle spoke of, i.e Merc-2%=Ferrari-6%=Renault-11%=Honda, and assuming in qualifying Merc have 1000hp, this gives the following;

Ferrari=980hp
Renault=943hp
Honda=901hp

We also have the top speeds of all chassis for Abu Dhabi

ForceIndia=331.8
Williams=329.4
Merc=326.9
Ferrari=325.6
HAAS=324.2
RBR=322.7
Sauber=321.2 (we can discount these as Brundle made no mention of the 2016 Ferrari number)
Renault=320.1
TorroRosso=318.3
McLaren=316.3

Running it all through my spreadsheet I get the following.

Drag delta % of Merc powered cars

FI=0%
Williams= +2.3%
Merc= +4.8%

Drag delta % of Ferrari 2017 powered cars

Ferrari= 0%
HASS= +1.36%

Drag delta % of Renault powered cars

RBR= 0%
Renault= +2.57%
TR= +4.41%

As this is the McLaren thread, I will get back on topic, drag levels of all above compared to the McLaren;

ForceIndia= -3.17%
RBR= -1.06%
Williams= -0.84%
Merc= -0.49%
McLaren= 0%
Ferrari= +0.49%
Renault= +1.44%
HAAS= +1.85%
TorroRosso= +3.17%

Now, I see that TR are looking bad. That may be because they are conserving PU components, but the same could be said of all except Hamilton.

Anyway, using the McLaren Drag figure and the Renault power level we get an extra 5.3kph on top speed, up to 321.6kph. With Merc power it would be 328.5kph!

Would I put my life on the figures above? Nope! But, it is interesting to compare and it looks like Williams have less than 1% less drag!

It seems that on this track Honda were forced to do heavy fuel savings, suggesting that they run with heavy fuel load. Look at laps 43-45: suddenly Alonso was able to run at the pace of Red Bull's Verstappen and 0.5 sec quicker than Perez.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... rgio Perez

If the problem was in their energy harvesting/deployment, they will not able to maintain such speed for three consecutive laps. I think that the weakest point of Honda is the efficiency of ICE. If sorted out, I guess that they will run much lighter thus improving dramatically their pace.

The whole formula is efficiency based. The more energy extracted from each gram of fuel the better and the earlier you can extract the energy the better. Efficient ICE is fundamental, coupled with efficient MGU-H. The MGU-K side is fixed at 120kW, so the only potential gains there are through the efficiency of the CE in converting the ES energy to the MGU-K and vica versa.

If/when Honda make gains in ICE efficiency, they will lose a proportion of heat energy they can recover from the exhaust and the pressure is then on the turbine and MGU-H to be more efficient.

stevesingo wrote: ↑

27 Nov 2017, 11:05

The whole formula is efficiency based. The more energy extracted from each gram of fuel the better and the earlier you can extract the energy the better. Efficient ICE is fundamental, coupled with efficient MGU-H. The MGU-K side is fixed at 120kW, so the only potential gains there are through the efficiency of the CE in converting the ES energy to the MGU-K and vica versa.

If/when Honda make gains in ICE efficiency, they will lose a proportion of heat energy they can recover from the exhaust and the pressure is then on the turbine and MGU-H to be more efficient.

Yes it is all about balancing this right. Hasegawa praise merc in more than one time specific in this area. I guess honda and Ferrari still using Hot blowing on off or part throttle, hence burden the fuel consumption badly. Btw if Ferrari is the strongest in outright power, merc by far is the most efficient, and their qualy mode give insight how powerfull their engine when all the fuel Flow and trick lubricant is utilized. They just dont want their engine explode so that they almost never turn up their engine in race. Merc is sandbagging. Their customer software is limiting their real power being used