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hurril wrote:

godlameroso wrote:It would lighten the burden on the energy store, allowing for longer deployment per lap. This system would not replace the gear driven MGU-K it would supplement it.

It's simple if your competition can only deploy for 35 seconds and you can deploy for 40 seconds that's an extra 5 seconds that you have 120kw more than the competition.

Not to mention more time spent at full throttle and shorter braking distances would put MGU-K harvesting at a premium. It would certainly be an advantage for the new regulations.

Anyway it's just an idea, the extra weight and space the system would occupy probably makes it impractical.

We are missing each other here. Where is this energy coming from? "Recovery" is not the answer to that. What energy is being recovered with your suggestion that cannot or is not recovered at this point?

The MGU-k is driven by the ICE. You are suggesting a system also driven by the ICE. Aren't you just adding suspenders to the belt to keep the pants up, so to say?

roon wrote:I believe that extra store is meant to be inclusive of a traditional vehicle battery powering the low voltage ancillaries. 300kJ may be stored in it ahead of time. i.e. the initial charge of the battery in the pits. The diagram states that only 2kj may be recovered at a rate of 2kW i.e. the sort of charge rate you would expect from a traditional alternator. The potential motive power of this store seems limited.

toraabe wrote:Sounds very similar to the PU106D.
Mainly because of the length of the plenum.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/vide ... 62058.html

godlameroso wrote:You have an accumulator act as a reservoir to store hydraulic pressure, much like the fuel pump is driven by the engine to create 500bar pressure, you could charge an accumulator with hydraulic pressure from a gear driven by the transmission input shaft or crankshaft or like any other engine ancillary. You would store this hydraulic pressure independent of the ES and release it to directly drive the MGU-K when needed. This system would be completely separate from the ERS system.

According to the energy flow chart, the engine ancillaries can send power to and from the MGU-K
http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg

And any non ERS energy storage can recover up to 300kJ. Or about 2 seconds of extra deployment. Although those 300kJ don't specify if they have the same per lap requirement as the ES to MGU-K

Here are the regulations regarding 5.13

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

hurril wrote:

godlameroso wrote:You have an accumulator act as a reservoir to store hydraulic pressure, much like the fuel pump is driven by the engine to create 500bar pressure, you could charge an accumulator with hydraulic pressure from a gear driven by the transmission input shaft or crankshaft or like any other engine ancillary. You would store this hydraulic pressure independent of the ES and release it to directly drive the MGU-K when needed. This system would be completely separate from the ERS system.

According to the energy flow chart, the engine ancillaries can send power to and from the MGU-K
http://static.sportskeeda.com/wp-conten ... 24x606.jpg

And any non ERS energy storage can recover up to 300kJ. Or about 2 seconds of extra deployment. Although those 300kJ don't specify if they have the same per lap requirement as the ES to MGU-K

Here are the regulations regarding 5.13

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

Ohh I understand completely now. Like an elastic and controlled coupling between engine and MGU-k of sorts.

roon wrote:Depends on the application and optimization. I don't think it's accurate to say that hydraulic transmissions are necessarily larger or heavier than other drive types. It certainly wouldn't be the main limit to your idea—that would be the 2.7 hp & 20kJ you have to play with, spent in one second at max discharge rate. The hydraulic stuff you posted is interesting though and hints at what's left within optimization. In an less regulated formula with big funding I think we'd see sophisticated, lightweight, efficient hydraulic drive systems. Their flexibility seems valuable to me. Sort of the mechanical equivalent to electric drive.

roon wrote:Gotcha. So the discharge rate isn't regulated but the charge rate is at 2kW. Every 2.3 minutes you'd have 280kJ (78 W-h) to discharge into an ancillary device of some sort.

However:

5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted.

Perhaps there's another opportunity to use that 300kJ for benefit elsewhere. Powered aero or suspension devices are a no-go. Maybe a coolant or oil pump which can be powered by reversing flow through it. Is this what you were getting at before?

Might even forget about the 300kJ ancillary-ES and build it into the oil circuit or coolant circuit for greater capacity. For example: a coolant pump that only pumps during braking. Give it two or more stages. One for pumping to charge up reservoir pressure, another acting as a motor to expend the charge. Both modes could involve moving fluid through the engine block, thus could be defended as primarily a low-parasitic loss coolant pump.