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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 04:01
by Zynerji
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 03:35
Zynerji wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 03:05
They look more feisty in the corners, and mguk+turbo lag is going to feel like a 2 stroke hitting its power band twice on corner exit. Maybe that gets us some more edge-of-the-seat racing?
I think that the MGUK will be used as anti-lag, so the corner exits will still be quite smooth.
If they wanted the cars to be more knife edge on corner exits they would have left fuel flow as it is, delete the MGUH and MGUK.
The headline power would be less - about 600kW, rather than 750kW, but at least 50kg would be saved from the car and turbo lag would actually be a thing.
Is VNT allowed? That shouldn't be too expensive to develop. If not, is it For Sure twin scroll for the early RPM power boost?
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 04:21
by wuzak
Zynerji wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 04:01
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 03:35
Zynerji wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 03:05
They look more feisty in the corners, and mguk+turbo lag is going to feel like a 2 stroke hitting its power band twice on corner exit. Maybe that gets us some more edge-of-the-seat racing?
I think that the MGUK will be used as anti-lag, so the corner exits will still be quite smooth.
If they wanted the cars to be more knife edge on corner exits they would have left fuel flow as it is, delete the MGUH and MGUK.
The headline power would be less - about 600kW, rather than 750kW, but at least 50kg would be saved from the car and turbo lag would actually be a thing.
Is VNT allowed? That shouldn't be too expensive to develop. If not, is it For Sure twin scroll for the early RPM power boost?
No variable geometry in the turbine, compressor or engine intakes (except for throttles, the rules for which haven't been finalised yet)
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 05:54
by Zynerji
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 04:21
Zynerji wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 04:01
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 03:35
I think that the MGUK will be used as anti-lag, so the corner exits will still be quite smooth.
If they wanted the cars to be more knife edge on corner exits they would have left fuel flow as it is, delete the MGUH and MGUK.
The headline power would be less - about 600kW, rather than 750kW, but at least 50kg would be saved from the car and turbo lag would actually be a thing.
Is VNT allowed? That shouldn't be too expensive to develop. If not, is it For Sure twin scroll for the early RPM power boost?
No variable geometry in the turbine, compressor or engine intakes (except for throttles, the rules for which haven't been finalised yet)
One could make the logic jump that VNT is also a type of "throttle" controlling how much air enters the engine...
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 07:48
by wuzak
Nork4 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2022, 18:20
Hi.
First post here.
Brembo has an YouTube video that shows the time the cars are braking per lap for each track we have been to so far in 2022. It's NOT accurate, but I've assumed you can get a max of 350KW for that number of braking seconds.
https://i.postimg.cc/nrC6SLbD/F1-2022-Braking-times.png
Looking at the 2 extremes (for Qualifying ONLY):
-In Miami you could regen a max of 2.8MJ per lap and deploy 6.8MJ (4MJ + 2.8MJ) in a qualification lap.
-In Azerbaijan you could regen a max of 7MJ per lap and deploy 11MJ (4MJ + 7MJ) in a qualification lap.
4MJ is 11.4 secs of 350KW deployment.
6.8MJ is 19.4 x secs of 350KW deployment.
11MJ is 31.4 secs of 350KW deployment.
13MJ (the max possible by regulation - 4MJ starting charge + 9MJ regen) is 37.1 secs of 350KW deployment.
So how much energy you can harvest in regen is a very very big deal to your lap time.
I missed this before.
20s of braking at Baku sounds good, but you can only store 4MJ at a time, so you would have the full power for about 1/3 of the main straight.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 08:25
by NL_Fer
So drivers have to drive with the brake balance, biased to the rear axle. Wonder how that will be liked, maybe we see more karting moves.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 09:16
by Pat Pending
NL_Fer wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 08:25
So drivers have to drive with the brake balance, biased to the rear axle. Wonder how that will be liked, maybe we see more karting moves.
I don't imagine the actual brake balance (i.e. fron/rear balance) will change, but more of the rear braking effort will be done by the MGUK on regen.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 09:36
by henry
Nork4 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2022, 18:20
Hi.
First post here.
Brembo has an YouTube video that shows the time the cars are braking per lap for each track we have been to so far in 2022. It's NOT accurate, but I've assumed you can get a max of 350KW for that number of braking seconds.
https://i.postimg.cc/nrC6SLbD/F1-2022-Braking-times.png
Looking at the 2 extremes (for Qualifying ONLY):
-In Miami you could regen a max of 2.8MJ per lap and deploy 6.8MJ (4MJ + 2.8MJ) in a qualification lap.
-In Azerbaijan you could regen a max of 7MJ per lap and deploy 11MJ (4MJ + 7MJ) in a qualification lap.
4MJ is 11.4 secs of 350KW deployment.
6.8MJ is 19.4 x secs of 350KW deployment.
11MJ is 31.4 secs of 350KW deployment.
13MJ (the max possible by regulation - 4MJ starting charge + 9MJ regen) is 37.1 secs of 350KW deployment.
So how much energy you can harvest in regen is a very very big deal to your lap time.
A useful chart. However, regen power is limited by traction. Current cars are traction limited for 120kW at about 120kph. The 2026 cars will be traction limited at a higher speed. Let’s say 200kph. So average braking power per stop will be less than 350kW. Maybe 250 would be a number. But it will depend on the start and end speed for every stop.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 11:53
by FW17
is 350 KW the deployment rating or for both harvesting and deployment?
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 14:47
by wuzak
FW17 wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 11:53
is 350 KW the deployment rating or for both harvesting and deployment?
Both.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 16:02
by wuzak
Nork4 wrote: ↑20 Aug 2022, 18:20
Hi.
First post here.
Brembo has an YouTube video that shows the time the cars are braking per lap for each track we have been to so far in 2022. It's NOT accurate, but I've assumed you can get a max of 350KW for that number of braking seconds.
https://i.postimg.cc/nrC6SLbD/F1-2022-Braking-times.png
Looking at the 2 extremes (for Qualifying ONLY):
-In Miami you could regen a max of 2.8MJ per lap and deploy 6.8MJ (4MJ + 2.8MJ) in a qualification lap.
-In Azerbaijan you could regen a max of 7MJ per lap and deploy 11MJ (4MJ + 7MJ) in a qualification lap.
4MJ is 11.4 secs of 350KW deployment.
6.8MJ is 19.4 x secs of 350KW deployment.
11MJ is 31.4 secs of 350KW deployment.
13MJ (the max possible by regulation - 4MJ starting charge + 9MJ regen) is 37.1 secs of 350KW deployment.
So how much energy you can harvest in regen is a very very big deal to your lap time.
Apart from qualifying, at Albert Park they will have more than a minute where the power they have is the lowest power F1 cars have had since 1983.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 17:50
by Just_a_fan
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 16:02
Apart from qualifying, at Albert Park they will have more than a minute where the power they have is the lowest power F1 cars have had since 1983.
Serious question: is that a problem?
If the lap times are quick, does it matter exactly how much power the ICE puts out? How much of a lap is actually using full power currently? Power is mostly used to over come drag at high speed - for many circuits, there is more power than is really needed for much of the lap.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 18:10
by Big Tea
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 17:50
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 16:02
Apart from qualifying, at Albert Park they will have more than a minute where the power they have is the lowest power F1 cars have had since 1983.
Serious question: is that a problem?
If the lap times are quick, does it matter exactly how much power the ICE puts out? How much of a lap is actually using full power currently? Power is mostly used to over come drag at high speed - for many circuits, there is more power than is really needed for much of the lap.
I quite agree. As I said previously, cars are racing cars, not the stopwatch a couple of seconds will not be noticed in real time.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 23 Aug 2022, 18:23
by NL_Fer
Well I will feel strange. They have maximum power available out of the corner, then when above 250 ERS will shut down or taper off.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 24 Aug 2022, 00:05
by gruntguru
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 17:50
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 16:02
Apart from qualifying, at Albert Park they will have more than a minute where the power they have is the lowest power F1 cars have had since 1983.
Serious question: is that a problem?
If the lap times are quick, does it matter exactly how much power the ICE puts out? How much of a lap is actually using full power currently? Power is mostly used to over come drag at high speed - for many circuits, there is more power than is really needed for much of the lap.
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.
At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation
Posted: 24 Aug 2022, 09:47
by Just_a_fan
gruntguru wrote: ↑24 Aug 2022, 00:05
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 17:50
wuzak wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 16:02
Apart from qualifying, at Albert Park they will have more than a minute where the power they have is the lowest power F1 cars have had since 1983.
Serious question: is that a problem?
If the lap times are quick, does it matter exactly how much power the ICE puts out? How much of a lap is actually using full power currently? Power is mostly used to over come drag at high speed - for many circuits, there is more power than is really needed for much of the lap.
The ratio of power to grip is important to the spectacle. If the cars have more grip and less power there will be a reduction in the skill level required to control the car.
At a simplistic level you can think of this as time the driver has to spend modulating the throttle as opposed to simply WOT and control the steering.
In which case it would seem that the cars at the back of the grid, currently, are better for the spectacle as they have less grip than similarly powerful cars at the front of the grid. And yet no one moans about the front of the grid being dull.
The reality is that most of the time the cars are on rails no matter what simply because the understanding of suspension, aero and engine throttle mapping are so much higher today than in yesteryear. If you gave the current cars another 200hp, the teams would just engineer them to be as controlled as possible for the driver because that's the quickest way around a track. Going sideways is great for showboating but it's rubbish for lap time in track cars - rally cars are a different thing, of course.
