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Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 01:34
by Just_a_fan
djos wrote: ↑26 Oct 2021, 23:19
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑26 Oct 2021, 13:53
Stu wrote: ↑26 Oct 2021, 13:30
I fully expect there to be a lot of inter-team analysis of how effective the different floor ‘sealing’ methods are, although the restriction in wind-tunnel and CFD runs will hamper some teams ability to do this fully.
Effective floor/ground sealing over a range of ride-heights will probably be a key element of difference in lap-time next year.
I think the point is that there is no floor sealing. You need a physical device - a skirt - to seal the floor. All of the stuff written about using aero devices and vortices to seal the floor are incorrect. All one can do is try to ensure only "good" air goes under the floor rather than "bad" air.
The 2022 cars do have side skirts, they are just fixed in place and dont extend below the plank:
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -floor.jpg
But won't seal the underside.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 01:41
by djos
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 01:34
djos wrote: ↑26 Oct 2021, 23:19
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑26 Oct 2021, 13:53
I think the point is that there is no floor sealing. You need a physical device - a skirt - to seal the floor. All of the stuff written about using aero devices and vortices to seal the floor are incorrect. All one can do is try to ensure only "good" air goes under the floor rather than "bad" air.
The 2022 cars do have side skirts, they are just fixed in place and dont extend below the plank:
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -floor.jpg
But won't seal the underside.
If they run as close to the ground as they can, it'll still be better than the current sealing techniques.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 08:55
by jjn9128
For me those are the side walls of the tunnels. A skirt bridges the gap to the ground. Maybe it's semantics but I find it an important distinction.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 10:27
by Just_a_fan
jjn9128 wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 08:55
For me those are the side walls of the tunnels. A skirt bridges the gap to the ground. Maybe it's semantics but I find it an important distinction.
Agreed.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 10:59
by djos
jjn9128 wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 08:55
For me those are the side walls of the tunnels. A skirt bridges the gap to the ground. Maybe it's semantics but I find it an important distinction.
Considering at one point they were considering using tunnels that weren’t “sealed”, I think not calling the tunnel walls skirts is semantics. Just because they don’t move, doesn’t change their function.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 11:47
by basti313
djos wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 01:41
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 01:34
But won't seal the underside.
If they run as close to the ground as they can, it'll still be better than the current sealing techniques.
The combination will be the core point. There is no reason not to additionally seal the floor with vortices.
I think this will be one of the miracles and copy points next year....how do you operate the floor in terms or ride height vs speed and how do you additionally seal it depending on the average height your car has.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 12:40
by CMSMJ1
djos wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 01:41
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 01:34
But won't seal the underside.
If they run as close to the ground as they can, it'll still be better than the current sealing techniques.
It'll have a limit due to the body roll though won't it? How far from centreline are these tunnel walls?
Would there be even more advantage in promoting a flatter car platform to maximise this aero? At the expense of a compliant car?
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 12:45
by djos
I’d have thought so. Considering the new tires will move the job of springs back to the suspension, this should be easier I’d have thought.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 13:00
by CMSMJ1
They might look "faster" and be more skittish then - I can imagine a sequence of bumpy COTA might unsetlle them somewhat if one of the key areas of performance is a low, flat (to the ground) underfloor.
They'll be fast round a smooth track, a la Turkey.
It is a shame so much of the car is regulated and they are so massive but to see a new change is good. Can't wait to get the first launch and then the first pitlane, floors and installation pics.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 15:17
by Just_a_fan
Can the people that talk about sealing the floor explain how it happens, please?
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 15:46
by FW17
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 15:17
Can the people that talk about sealing the floor explain how it happens, please?
I guess this is the idea
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 16:44
by Just_a_fan
That isn't sealing the floor - the vortices are moved by the air so if the vortex is moving inboard, air must also be moving inboard and that means from the edge of the floor.
That's the thing about the "use a vortex to seal the floor" thing. The vortex isn't immune to the overall movement of the airflow around the car - it isn't a solid thing like a pole, it's like a rope and is flexible as can be seen by the Y250 vortex being deflected by the bargeboards etc.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 20:03
by Stu
Just_a_fan wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 16:44
That isn't sealing the floor - the vortices are moved by the air so if the vortex is moving inboard, air must also be moving inboard and that means from the edge of the floor.
That's the thing about the "use a vortex to seal the floor" thing. The vortex isn't immune to the overall movement of the airflow around the car - it isn't a solid thing like a pole, it's like a rope and is flexible as can be seen by the Y250 vortex being deflected by the bargeboards etc.
Quite right! A horizontal ‘fence’ only works as a skirt device IF you can encourage the airflow/vortex along the length, which is extremely difficult to do along the entire length (any vortex generated at the front will be mostly ineffective by the rear).
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 20:54
by BlueCheetah66
From what I've read, one of the main changes that caused higher rake cars to gain on lower rake cars was the simplification of the brake winglets. I wonder if it will be a similar trend next year with the brake winglet being allowed and can go quite low.
Re: 2022 Aero Thread
Posted: 27 Oct 2021, 21:41
by mzso
BlueCheetah66 wrote: ↑27 Oct 2021, 20:54
From what I've read, one of the main changes that caused higher rake cars to gain on lower rake cars was the simplification of the brake winglets. I wonder if it will be a similar trend next year with the brake winglet being allowed and can go quite low.
Why have rake at all with next year's cars, when you can just shape the underside? It would only raise the center of gravity, and make the suspension and balancing the car more difficult.