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Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 17 Jul 2019, 23:13
by Pyrone89
Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.
Now we are finally starting to see some engine convergence they change the rules again which is stupid. Find the biggest differentiator and make that more equal. I think this can be done by dropping the H and allowing more K (but keep it automatic/mapped/delivered with normal throttle) plus allowing more units of everything to be used before penalties (like 6) to have less endurance style racing
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 06:00
by carisi2k
ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑17 Jul 2019, 17:33
carisi2k wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 01:34
Keep the same technology but reduce the engine size to 1 litre and allow 4 to 8 cylinders.
If they allowed 4 to 8 cylinders everyone would run 4 cylinders, especially if dispacement was cut to 1L.
would they. Do you think that ferrari wouldn't give the v8 a go. The existing 4 would probably stay with the v6 but maybe BMW, Audi, Porsche and toyota would give the 4 cylinder a go.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 08:49
by ENGINE TUNER
Pyrone89 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2019, 23:13
Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.
Now we are finally starting to see some engine convergence they change the rules again which is stupid. Find the biggest differentiator and make that more equal. I think this can be done by dropping the H and allowing more K (but keep it automatic/mapped/delivered with normal throttle) plus allowing more units of everything to be used before penalties (like 6) to have less endurance style racing
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 08:54
by ENGINE TUNER
carisi2k wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 06:00
ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑17 Jul 2019, 17:33
carisi2k wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 01:34
Keep the same technology but reduce the engine size to 1 litre and allow 4 to 8 cylinders.
If they allowed 4 to 8 cylinders everyone would run 4 cylinders, especially if dispacement was cut to 1L.
would they. Do you think that ferrari wouldn't give the v8 a go. The existing 4 would probably stay with the v6 but maybe BMW, Audi, Porsche and toyota would give the 4 cylinder a go.
From the late 70's to 1988 1.5L turbocharged engines of ANY cylinder count were allowed, only alfa Romeo tried a V8, with the majority being I4 and v6 engines. Increasing number of cylinders also increases frictional and thermal losses. If the formula called for 1L max, then they would all definitely move to 4 cylinder engines if not 3 or 2 if they were allowed. The original plan for the current formula was for 4 cylinder until Ferrari decided they would prefer a v6 and used the threat of their veto power to make it happen.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 11:27
by BrunoH
they should go back to the 2.4v8 it was great, sounded great, use the new battery tech , the engines were already made so no big costs.. they are cheaper.. the fans wold love it and teams wold save money. win win...
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 12:42
by Pyrone89
ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 08:49
Pyrone89 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2019, 23:13
Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.
Now we are finally starting to see some engine convergence they change the rules again which is stupid. Find the biggest differentiator and make that more equal. I think this can be done by dropping the H and allowing more K (but keep it automatic/mapped/delivered with normal throttle) plus allowing more units of everything to be used before penalties (like 6) to have less endurance style racing
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
1. Stop insulting people
2. It is funny you say I dont understand it yet yourself make basic mistakes about what the K and H are and what they do (2 completely seperate sources).
3. There is constant engine saving going on, how is this not endurance style racing? Do you even watch F1 and listen to the team radios?
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 13:17
by ENGINE TUNER
Pyrone89 wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 12:42
ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 08:49
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
1. Stop insulting people
2. It is funny you say I dont understand it yet yourself make basic mistakes about what the K and H are and what they do (2 completely seperate sources).
3. There is constant engine saving going on, how is this not endurance style racing? Do you even watch F1 and listen to the team radios?
The H produces most of the electrical energy for the K, if you remove the H, where would you get the energy to run the K?
Yes I watch F1 and listen to the radios, there is no irregular engine saving going on. If HAM is miles ahead why would he keep his PU on max power? F1 has always been about winning by the smallest margin and minimizing the stress on the car components. This is nothing new.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 13:34
by Pyrone89
ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 13:17
Pyrone89 wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 12:42
ENGINE TUNER wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 08:49
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
1. Stop insulting people
2. It is funny you say I dont understand it yet yourself make basic mistakes about what the K and H are and what they do (2 completely seperate sources).
3. There is constant engine saving going on, how is this not endurance style racing? Do you even watch F1 and listen to the team radios?
The H produces most of the electrical energy for the K, if you remove the H, where would you get the energy to run the K?
Yes I watch F1 and listen to the radios, there is no irregular engine saving going on. If HAM is miles ahead why would he keep his PU on max power? F1 has always been about winning by the smallest margin and minimizing the stress on the car components. This is nothing new.
Braking does for the K
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 13:50
by digitalrurouni
And this is where F1's main problem lies. Regulation changes. Just when people get on top of the aero rules they change. Just when people are getting the hang of the PU rules, now they are changing. There's nothing wrong with the current PU. Leave it as is. Make the racing better by evolving the aero rules so cars can follow each other. More ground effects less wing dependency. Honda is on a charge. Renault is up there with Mercedes and Ferrari. Stable regs around PU will allow other manufacturers to come in as well.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 13:51
by ENGINE TUNER
Pyrone89 wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 13:34
Braking does for the K
Braking only provides about 20% of the power that the K currently puts out, where are you going to get the rest of the 80% that the H currently provides?
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 15:58
by Bandit1216
digitalrurouni wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 13:50
And this is where F1's main problem lies. Regulation changes. Just when people get on top of the aero rules they change. Just when people are getting the hang of the PU rules, now they are changing. There's nothing wrong with the current PU. Leave it as is. Make the racing better by evolving the aero rules so cars can follow each other. More ground effects less wing dependency. Honda is on a charge. Renault is up there with Mercedes and Ferrari. Stable regs around PU will allow other manufacturers to come in as well.
Amen to that.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 17:07
by NL_Fer
With manual K deployment, it would replace allot of engine mode tinkering en secret charging/deployment schemes.
Now we would hear mode 8, strat 6, dial 11 and it could mean, the mgu-k is going to use another deployment scheme, which we don’t know.
With manual deployment is, an engineer would say: release K/ERS/Boost earlier or don’t use it between corner 3 & 4. That would be clear to understand.
They used it between 2011-2013 KERS period, it is not new.
Together with a larger ES, those are changes that don’t need big changes in the current powerunit. Manufacturers can keep much of current design and continue development. Afterall, the 4 manufacturers already expressed their wish to keep current design.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 17:33
by mzso
Pyrone89 wrote: ↑17 Jul 2019, 23:13
Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.
They can throw all of that out, except the gearshift paddles, Then the button for K could be easily added.
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 21:06
by henry
NL_Fer wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 17:07
With manual K deployment, it would replace allot of engine mode tinkering en secret charging/deployment schemes.
Now we would hear mode 8, strat 6, dial 11 and it could mean, the mgu-k is going to use another deployment scheme, which we don’t know.
With manual deployment is, an engineer would say: release K/ERS/Boost earlier or don’t use it between corner 3 & 4. That would be clear to understand.
They used it between 2011-2013 KERS period, it is not new.
Together with a larger ES, those are changes that don’t need big changes in the current powerunit. Manufacturers can keep much of current design and continue development. Afterall, the 4 manufacturers already expressed their wish to keep current design.
At most circuits K recovery is around 1 MJ. The current ES is allowed a 4 MJ SOC difference. The ES itself is probably 16 to 20 MJ. Why would a larger ES help?
Re: 2021 Engine thread
Posted: 18 Jul 2019, 21:41
by NL_Fer
henry wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 21:06
NL_Fer wrote: ↑18 Jul 2019, 17:07
With manual K deployment, it would replace allot of engine mode tinkering en secret charging/deployment schemes.
Now we would hear mode 8, strat 6, dial 11 and it could mean, the mgu-k is going to use another deployment scheme, which we don’t know.
With manual deployment is, an engineer would say: release K/ERS/Boost earlier or don’t use it between corner 3 & 4. That would be clear to understand.
They used it between 2011-2013 KERS period, it is not new.
Together with a larger ES, those are changes that don’t need big changes in the current powerunit. Manufacturers can keep much of current design and continue development. Afterall, the 4 manufacturers already expressed their wish to keep current design.
At most circuits K recovery is around 1 MJ. The current ES is allowed a 4 MJ SOC difference. The ES itself is probably 16 to 20 MJ. Why would a larger ES help?
Larger SOC, so they can save up a few laps of energy, than deploy in a single lap.