F1technical.net

Re Honda Sochi intended engine upgrade, Honda did not pushed-out/declared or talked about any numbers in power gains, numbers being pushed out are all down to the usual well known media tactics of (confuse me some confuse me not) to the daylight of those that falls for such things. The tweet from Honda confirmed ‘we are introducing some power unit updates in Sochi, we are looking at more performance in the long term, which means penalties here in the short-term’.
Earlier on here I did not claimed anything about what I read.
Fuel used in formula 1 is strictly regulated, the formulation contains the same ingredients that is contained in super regular unleaded road side pump fuel, except for one point,- the octane rating is not limited.
Fuel dilution of oil in formula 1 is not a problem. The phenomenal power extraction per fuel quantity used makes it more so as the less unburned fuel the less fuel dilution of oil.
The strongest combustion possible using super regular unleaded fuel can be had at a fuel air ratio of 14.7:1.

ivanlesk wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 18:19

Bill wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 16:10

They could pass Mercedes if the 30 hp deficit was true

If all "news" and "predictions" around Honda were true they would be far ahead of everyone.

LOL, only if it were attached to a McLaren

godlameroso wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 18:36

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 15:54

maguetox wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 15:40

Well its official, Spec 3 is here.

https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/statu ... 5328694272



Edit: According with Albert Fabrega, this evolution is going an increase around the 40 hp if they can extract all the potential of the evolution. They are changing all the PU parts but the battery assembly.

It’s quite amazing they are still gaining ~5% at a time! Any news or rumors on what has changed?

The rumors are in the cylinder head I'm guessing they reworked other parts, it wouldn't make sense to go through the trouble of taking penalties if there weren't enough changes at once.

A lot of gains can come from reducing friction, pumping losses, both from the ICE and it's ancillaries, while also improving the combustion process, and the efficiency of the ERS and it's integration with the ICE. So if you add up a lot of small improvements it can add up to a big one.

Add to that the potential use of less fuel for improving the combustion process, we have and impact in the mechanical grip of the car and better tires usage.

What is true is that we need to have our expectations in check for at least a couple of races or more until they fine tune the PU and their power delivery.

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 20:15

ivanlesk wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 18:19

Bill wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 16:10

They could pass Mercedes if the 30 hp deficit was true

If all "news" and "predictions" around Honda were true they would be far ahead of everyone.

LOL, only if it were attached to a McLaren

Untrue.
McLaren set them back few years.

ivanlesk wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 21:32

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 20:15

ivanlesk wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 18:19

If all "news" and "predictions" around Honda were true they would be far ahead of everyone.

LOL, only if it were attached to a McLaren

Untrue.
McLaren set them back few years.

I doubt a few years or they'd be starting over this year. But it was a joke ... Remember when the McLaren chassis was the best on the grid. Best engine (Honda) and best chassis (McLaren) why wouldn't they be ahead of everyone.

Well reporters are hearing nearly 0.5 second gain from the engine, with updates to the cylinder head like mentioned earlier, and when Gasly was pressed, he said he was excited for the update but is remaining tight lipped on its potency.

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 21:50

I doubt a few years or they'd be starting over this year. But it was a joke ... Remember when the McLaren chassis was the best on the grid. Best engine (Honda) and best chassis (McLaren) why wouldn't they be ahead of everyone.

That was in 1988-1991

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 21:50

ivanlesk wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 21:32

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 20:15

LOL, only if it were attached to a McLaren

Untrue.
McLaren set them back few years.

I doubt a few years or they'd be starting over this year. But it was a joke ... Remember when the McLaren chassis was the best on the grid. Best engine (Honda) and best chassis (McLaren) why wouldn't they be ahead of everyone.

I know it was joke

I am reserving my expectation until next Grand Prix. This will probably be weekend of setting baseline and do mapping and probably not even turned up to the full whatever amount of HP 30 40 whatever the number is. I do want to see this weekend and hopefully it is reliable.

Although I hope they prove me wrong

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 14:29

I highly doubt that the stoich AFR in a modern F1 car is 14.7:1. While the misconception is sometimes that F1 fuel is pump gas there are differences to what you and I can buy at the pump. There are differences even in straight pump gas vs high octane racing fuels you can buy 'at the pump' for your commuter car (down to a stoich AFR of 13.4). With where Honda and others are running their engine maps this difference in stoich AFR is substantial for reliability and desired operation.

The different maps the Honda will use different lamda (λ) targets depending on what the purpose of the map is. Ideal λ being the AFR at which complete combustion occurs, all the fuel is burned with no excess air equally 1. Here is a graph for a gasoline engine which shows the different points for power / efficiency / stoich.
https://x-engineer.org/wp-content/uploa ... b70&677b70

The stoich AFR for F1 fuel is unlikely to be far from 14.7. Under the current formula, energy density is king and the more energy-dense formulations (within the fuel regulations) are all in that region.

Regarding best-efficiency AFR the plot you posted for "a gasoline engine" is more correctly for "a particular gasoline engine" ie varying the AFR with no other changes (except optimising spark advance). With changes to the engine design, best-efficiency can occur at a different AFR. In particular, features like direct injection, increased tumble and swirl, TJI, etc can move the optimum AFR to lambda 2.0 or thereabouts.

Tommy Cookers wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 11:07

regarding rpm .....
the current engines friction is influenced by the unusually high ('boosted') cylinder pressures on the compression stroke
lower rpm would presumably require even higher 'boost' to give the same power so frictional power may not reduce

Thoughts on friction.
It was suggested before that there may be benefit above 10,500 rpm by using lower ring tension than 'ideal' for power at 10,500 rpm. Helping to maybe have a slightly lower peak power but broader power band with slightly reduced friction.
Not sure of validity of concept as to how much higher the rpm will have to go to create any measurable difference.

In addition higher rpm means each combustion event will be at a lower pressure reducing compression friction on the rings re lower ring tension.

Thoughts?

maguetox wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 15:40

Well its official, Spec 3 is here.

https://twitter.com/HondaRacingF1/statu ... 5328694272



Edit: According with Albert Fabrega, this evolution is going an increase around the 40 hp if they can extract all the potential of the evolution. They are changing all the PU parts but the battery assembly.

Seems our beloved secret MKUltra agent has done well...

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2018 ... ports-moto

Big changes in ICE area,it will be a significant power up.

As the journalist is always a very reliable source about Honda's news in the past,so even we wont know the numbers,it must be a significant improvement.

gruntguru wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2018, 00:40

subcritical71 wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2018, 14:29

The stoich AFR for F1 fuel is unlikely to be far from 14.7. Under the current formula, energy density is king and the more energy-dense formulations (within the fuel regulations) are all in that region.

Regarding best-efficiency AFR the plot you posted for "a gasoline engine" is more correctly for "a particular gasoline engine" ie varying the AFR with no other changes (except optimising spark advance). With changes to the engine design, best-efficiency can occur at a different AFR. In particular, features like direct injection, increased tumble and swirl, TJI, etc can move the optimum AFR to lambda 2.0 or thereabouts.

Agree about the graph, it’s for a generic engine and from other posts here the theory is the up and sometimes close to 3 to 4 lambda, which is really pushing things.
I guess we’ll never know on the stoic AFR but wouldn’t the more energy dense compositions (if for the same molecular weight) allow higher air ratio?

http://f1sokuho.mopita.com/pc/free/inde ... 4201&tt=-1

If the new Honda power unit has more horsepower than Renault？

When asked if the rumored 30kw gain is true,tanabe TD said:"I wont say anything,you can imagine yourself,but i believe we can see a good level of performance."
When asked if the new power unit will pass Renault,tanabe TD said:"We dont know until the cars run on the track,it depends on how much performance on the dyno can transform to the car on the track."
Another interesting thing is that before honda announced they would bring Spec 3 in sochi,the Mercedes team already knew it,and they even got some figures.They think it will be more than 35hp.
"The gap to our PU will be closed to 30hp after the upgrade."One Mercedes engineer said.
The engineer had some experience working with Honda during BAR times.
"But sometimes Honda was too optimistic about the data in the past,so there is also a possibility that it will not increase that much."