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You must consider the drivers at least. One likes understeer, other oversteer. One likes to setup the car for the fast parts of the track, while other likes to be fast in corners ( compromising top speed inevitably). So there are other compromises that you have to consider. And all this things have it's effects on suspension setup. It's quite possible that the ideal tyre performance sweet-spot is not the same sweet spot for tyre degradation too. So it's a difficult and sensitive balance of a parameters that teams could find, but it's not as straight-forward as it seems. Like we saw at Monza 2010, when McLaren couldn't decide over two rear wing configurations. With this year's "sensitive" Pirelli tyres, every change in car setup could have an effect on tyre life/performance. Not to mention the fact, that almost every race is a new experience for tyre specialists.
Car differences like suspension geometry is another thing to consider. We saw Sauber mastering the tyre life, but not performance. We saw Merc overcooking rear tyres...etc...Maybe next year it would settle down, but now everyone's just experimenting quite a lot IMHO.

hardingfv32 wrote:Hoping to learn something.... Why not?

I am assuming that we are trying to get max performance from front & rear tires. Also, we do not have to degrade the performance of either end to solve some kind handling problem or driver preference.

Brian

Different driving styles
Different cars built with different philosophies
Different suspension on cars, (rear)

Tires are probably the most studied part of Motorsport yet it´s probably the least understood part of Motorsport.

"Different driving styles
Different cars built with different philosophies
Different suspension on cars, (rear)"

I don't understand the logic:
Why aren't the driving styles adjusted to what the tires want?
Why aren't the cars or suspension designed for what the tires want?

It seams to me that the tires dictate the design and driving requirements in the spec tire case.

Kalinka's thoughts on wear are valid, as are setup compromises for a complete lap or race to achieve the best time. So, for this discussion, why not ask is there an ideal camber number that provides the best performance over the current one qualifying lap?

Brian

Tell that to Button or Hamilton, opposite driving styles...

Could it be the case that the greatest drivers can adapt to what the tires want?

Or is it the case, like M Schumacher, the tires have to be built for the driver?

Brian

hardingfv32 wrote:Hoping to learn something.... Why not?

I am assuming that we are trying to get max performance from front & rear tires. Also, we do not have to degrade the performance of either end to solve some kind handling problem or driver preference.

Brian

Let's start with this: Maximum theoretical performance doesn't always lead to the fastest laps.

That's reality.

It seems I'm chasing you now JT.

There's a RedBull video in youtube with Martin Brundle I think. There they explain that if they put what numbers and data tell would be the best suspension for optimal performance, the driver wouldn't get the confidence needed because it would lead to "strange" car behaviour.


Sometimes you can get more time from driver confidence than from suspension performance.

That's why a safer car(although it weights more) might be faster.

"Maximum theoretical performance doesn't always lead to the fastest laps"

Are we talking driver confidence as Caito states?

Can I determine the "maximum theoretical performance" and then go find a driver that likes a car set to those numbers? Seems like I am leaving something on the table satisfying the drivers.

Brian

hardingfv32 wrote:"Different driving styles
Different cars built with different philosophies
Different suspension on cars, (rear)"

I don't understand the logic:
Why aren't the driving styles adjusted to what the tires want?
Why aren't the cars or suspension designed for what the tires want?

It seams to me that the tires dictate the design and driving requirements in the spec tire case.

Kalinka's thoughts on wear are valid, as are setup compromises for a complete lap or race to achieve the best time. So, for this discussion, why not ask is there an ideal camber number that provides the best performance over the current one qualifying lap?

Brian

"Why aren't the driving styles adjusted to what the tires want?"

we are humans, it´s not just some switch you turn on and then you drive in a certain way.
All drivers adapt as much as they can. Notice how some drivers are stupid quick one season then the other (after some tweaks to the tire or a completely new tire) they suck, basically.
But to answer your other question below (or above from here)
Yes, i would say that the best of the best have the ability to change driving style without much harm to their confidence or speed.
Then you have the scenario where a driver on Bridgestone´s sucked but once the Pirelli´s arrived they just fit his bill right away.
Doesn´t mean he will dominate, just means he knows what happens when the tires let go.

"Why aren't the cars or suspension designed for what the tires want?"

What do the tires want? Do you know that? I doubt even Pirelli knows that at this stage.

Camber is dynamic, it changes from corner to corner so there is no "perfect camber setting"

hardingfv32 wrote:Seems like I am leaving something on the table satisfying the drivers.

Yup. That's what you deal with when humans driving the cars. It's the reality of life.

A driver is just a controller to the car system. Usually in engineering, the system (or "plant") is fixed and you tune the controller gains to work best for what you're trying to achieve.

In a way, with a car and driver, your controller (driver) is fixed and you are trying to tune the plant/system to work best with the control system. In my opinion, this is why you CAN have slightly different setups between drivers... and why the theoretical max performance setup isn't necessarily the fastest on track.

"Confidence" is a bit of a vague term to describe it.. but I suppose that's part of it.

raymondu999 wrote:AFAIK camber is to maximise contact patch when the car is in roll. Theoretically, when you make a car stiffer, it rolls less, and you should put less camber. When you have it softer, and let it roll more, then more camber is ideal.

A note or two:

1) Adding camber is not used solely for the purpose of maximizing the contact patch when the car is in roll. There's such a thing as "camber thrust", which (aside from making the tire produce a lateral force even when driving straight) increases maximum lateral force capability in the direction cambered. At one point some NASCAR teams were using something like +8 degrees camber on inside fronts and it wasn't because the car rolled 8 degrees (although the camber gain/loss in the suspension may have played a small role here). F1 teams may use something in the range of 2-3 degrees at the front but the cars only roll around 1 degree. Before they started using parc ferme rules between qualifying and race, the camber would be even more aggressive during qualifying because they didn't have any wear concerns, i.e. they were maximizing the camber thrust.

2) Camber also affects the vertical spring rate of the tire, although I suspect that you'd prefer to use tire pressure to tune that aspect.

3) Either of the above effects of camber will probably change with load as well, so downforce levels may influence the choice of camber angle.

4) As discussed by others, camber is going to have several effects that influence the feel of the car, like straight line stability and overall cornering balance. I can't remember off-hand how it affects things like turn-in. But in any case I agree that the driver is likely an important consideration here.

Brian, you are thinking in a vacuum. You assume perfection from each team. F1 is still full of guess work and gut feelings.

I would imagine if each team could calculate the optimal tire camber for a given spec tire, then they could also theoretically, figure out solutions to other areas of the car and we would have identical cars driving around setting identical lap times.

I am trying to restrict some of the variables to understand why the cars would run different camber numbers with a spec tire.

Driver preference and wear are all valid, but for the moment remove them from the solution.

What aspects of the cars design would allow two cars to have maximum cornering performance but have different camber settings.

What is considered a significant camber difference/adjustment for this discussion, 1/2 deg? People seem to making judgments based on photos. How accurate might those judgments be?

Brian

You are restricting the variables that matter.

In any event, in fantasy land it would be conceivable to converge on multiple local minimum solutions which yield the same lap time. Maybe a high camber setup lets you carry more speed through the corners, where a lower camber setup lets you brake deeper and get in the throttle earlier.

Overall concept of your setup then, is one parameter. However, wear, durability, and driver considerations ARE major, major factors. To exclude them is ridiculous.

hardingfv32 wrote:What aspects of the cars design would allow two cars to have maximum cornering performance but have different camber settings.

Boiling it down, my opinion would be that it is influenced by the design parameters that affect a) the amount the car rolls, and b) the camber gain/loss in the suspension geometry.

But again, maximum cornering performance is not always the goal. Camber typically takes away from longitudinal grip, which I believe is one reason why you don't see much camber at the rear: they need to put the power down.

What is considered a significant camber difference/adjustment for this discussion, 1/2 deg?

Once at the track, I doubt any particular team changes their camber by more than a tenth of a degree (assuming the current rules where you can't change it between qualifying and race). But I don't know the full range between the teams - that would indeed require *very* careful measurement from photos since the teams aren't going to tell you their settings.