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Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 11:07
by Ferrari_Ivan
I had also thought that the exhaust blew the rear wheels. However, the temperatures of the gases emerging from the exhaust are too high. the rubber melts with these temperatures.
is right or wrong?
is a mystery why the exhaust is blowing in that part of the car. also because RB has done everything differently than Ferrari and McLaren
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:05
by Pup
You'll have to throw speed into the equation as well. At low speeds, the deflection might be so low that the exhaust is blowing onto the tires, but at higher speeds is being deflected toward the diffuser. It would be the ideal setup if it worked.
Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:09
by Pup
The other boards are all aflutter over this article in germany's TZ:
http://www.tz-online.de/sport/formel1/s ... 11550.html
Not my translation...
Dark clouds gathering before the formula 1-opening race in Melbourne on 18 March. Are the current tests in Barcelona meaningless? The reason, as the tz learned: The top FIA rule guardian, Charlie Whiting, is planning a reset before the start of the season. He wants to ban "engine mappings" (engine software) which all cars have that use Renault-and Mercedes engines.
Both engines would use a program which would not correspond to the regulations, it is said. Whiting would not accept the loopholes discovered by the teams after the abolition of the blown diffuser. Which means, in the opinion of Whiting, Renault and Mercedes would have found a way to continue to supply the diffuser with exhaust gases with the help of the motor settings and specially designed exhaust at the rear end of the car, although the driver is off the throttle - and therefore to ensure much more stability.
In an interview with the trade magazine Auto Bild Motorsport, Renault Managing Director Jean-François Caubet had already fueled those suspicion. "Even though the rules have changed, we found a solution together with Red Bull, to compensate for the loss of performance." "It's not the same, but a clever development that can make the crucial difference."
With Red Bull, Williams, Lotus, and Caterham four Renault teams are affected by the possible ban, and with Mercedes GP, McLaren, and Force India three Mercedes-supplied teams. With world champion Sebastian Vettel (Red Bull-Renault), Nico Rosberg and Michael Schumacher (both Mercedes GP), and Nico Hülkenberg (Force India-Mercedes) four of the five German pilots are also affected. Exception: Timo Glock drives a Cosworth engine with his Marussia team.
Whiting will soon inform the technical directors of the affected teams and lay out his ban in a special conference in early March. How the ban will be reflected in the performance of the cars is still open. At worst, all concerned teams would have to change their exhaust system, which could turn the basic concept of a car on its head and could cause a significant loss of lap time.
As the tz learned, Ferrari is said to have drawn Whiting's attention to the special systems of their competition. One thing is clear: Ferrari could use a little help from the FIA, because the F2012 proved to be a "rolling construction site" at the first test drives. The Italian engineers still don't understand their car. The four days of the first test at Jerez were therefore spent by the Italians to collect data.
In Barcelona, they continue to look for errors in the car systems. At least they know now that the problem lies in the aerodynamics. Their pits look like the Lego parts box of the neighbor's kid. Ferrari is experimenting with different engine covers, exhaust solutions, diffuser variants, and deflectors. So far without result. A weakening of the competition could make their own chaos at least smaller.
Ralf Bach
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:27
by Jersey Tom
Designing your car to blast exhaust on the tires seems like an awfully risky throw of the dice to me.
Don't think I'd take that approach.
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:32
by hardingfv32
1) Heating the rear tires does not sound logical. These tires are optimized for the general population of F1 cars. Is it being proposed that there is performance to be gained from operating at a temp above the normal operating range or is believed that some teams are have consistent issue getting up to the normal operating range. I do not believe that we have heard any complaints for the teams about the rears running too cool.
2) While heating the tires for a good start is a valid idea, you have assigned the exhaust flow to a task that has a very short benefit time window. The exhaust flow would not provide any benefit the rest of the race. Sounds like a poor compromise.
Brian
Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:45
by Just_a_fan
Pup wrote:The other boards are all aflutter over this article in germany's TZ:
If Charlie does do something to scupper the Renault and Merc engined teams then the season will be remembered for the return of "Ferrari International Assistance" all over again...
Ferrari should, perhaps, just pull their finger out and get their own car up to speed if they think the opposition have made their cars faster...
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:50
by Pup
No one is talking about heating the tires beyond their optimal temp. Every car has to get heat into its tires to a certain extent, and heating the tires and keeping it there is always a major issue in setting up the cars. I think smickle's point is that by adding exhaust heat, then you gain more freedom in your suspension setup. It's definitely worth looking into, and I'm fairly confident that the teams have used exhaust heat to one extent or another in the past - at least I know that we've talked about it.
And of course my question was if they had enough handle on the exhaust flow that they could design a system that only blew the tires at low speeds.
Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:52
by Gridlock
Just_a_fan wrote:
Ferrari should, perhaps, just pull their finger out and get their own car up to speed if they think the opposition have made their cars faster...
Or, they could ask that 2012 is run according to the principle that using engine mappings and exhaust gases to influence aerodynamics is 100% banned, which is what Charlie said last year and is the intent of the ban/reg changes.
I'm all for elegant solutions but I also want the exhaust to do 2 things
only: remove combustion products from the engine and give the V8s a good acoustic send-off. Whether Ferrari are struggling or not, I support any move towards these goals.
Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:53
by Mr.G
Just_a_fan wrote:Pup wrote:The other boards are all aflutter over this article in germany's TZ:
If Charlie does do something to scupper the Renault and Merc engined teams then the season will be remembered for the return of "Ferrari International Assistance" all over again...
Ferrari should, perhaps, just pull their finger out and get their own car up to speed if they think the opposition have made their cars faster...
But this is quite unfair, as the engines are homologized. If it will be baned Ferrari get out as FIA = Ferrari International Assistance, if they do nothing, they can not update theyre engine to such advantage.
However this should be baned, then the teames will be more equal.
Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 20:05
by N12ck
Gridlock wrote:Just_a_fan wrote:
Ferrari should, perhaps, just pull their finger out and get their own car up to speed if they think the opposition have made their cars faster...
Or, they could ask that 2012 is run according to the principle that using engine mappings and exhaust gases to influence aerodynamics is 100% banned, which is what Charlie said last year and is the intent of the ban/reg changes.
I'm all for elegant solutions but I also want the exhaust to do 2 things
only: remove combustion products from the engine and give the V8s a good acoustic send-off. Whether Ferrari are struggling or not, I support any move towards these goals.
At the end of the day, Ferrari came up with the exhaust extension idea, like the sealed pipe connected to the exhaust pipe, so IMO ferrari cannot complain for people looking for benefits from the exhaust when they clearly have been aswell
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 20:11
by hardingfv32
So you are saying they are going to waste the possible benefit of blowing a wing, etc., for some kind of unusual suspension setup which they feel has more benefit? That does not seem like a compromise that is currently very popular.
Brian
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 20:13
by Pup
I don't know how you got that out of what I said.
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 20:19
by hardingfv32
"then you gain more freedom in your suspension setup. "
I did not quote you, so my statement is directed to the public not you. I assume 'freedom' to use a performance enhancing setup.
Brian
Re: Exhaust Blown Tyres
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 20:24
by Pup
My point is that they might be able to do both - blow the tires at low speeds and the diffuser at high.
I think smickle is curious about the exhaust heat/setup relationship. And I wouldn't be quick to dismiss the idea at all. The blown diffuser will be at the least less effective this year, and there may well be a better performance gain by getting more out of the tires. As important as tire life is, the team who can make a big step there would have an incredible advantage.
Getting heat into the tires now requires friction - and the more friction the more tire wear. So if you could get the same heat into the tire without the added wear...
Re: Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes
Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 20:36
by hardingfv32
Considering the complete lack on any consensus over the ideal location of the exhaust outlet among the cars, is it logical to assume there is very little benefit from the use of the exhaust flow. Remember, the team engineer developed the exhaust rules. They knew what was required to gain performance from the exhaust flow.
If there is no apparent benefit, why would you waste fuel with off throttle blowing? A lighter fuel load or a questionable aero benefit, which would you choose?
Brian