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langwadt wrote:

flynfrog wrote:Also the usual two fastest drivers up the hill brought electric cars this year so there wasn't a full on ice unlimited car to race against. The Dallenbach car inst usually that fast.

I just had a quick look at results from previous years, they are faster or with in seconds of every one but the Loeb time

They also recently full paved in or after 2011 what was once an at least partial gravel course. I think monster has been running an electric for a few years now.

I'm not discounting what the car did it was an awesome run. As Tim pointed out the fact the car was electric doesn't mean nearly as much as the amount of HP it has or the aero.

I would disagree slightly; I'd say Power:weight is what is important for a hill climb car... And whilst you might say I'm being pedantic, it is worth noting that even 5 years ago an electric car could not be anywhere near an ICE-powered car in power:weight terms... Whereas now they're essentially there or thereabouts.

The electric cars also have an advantage over the ICE's; no performance degradation at altitude... There is a reason that the top drivers are turning up in electric cars these days and it is only partly down to marketing...

machin wrote:The electric cars also have an advantage over the ICE's; no performance degradation at altitude...

Not the case this time for the winner, as it lost half the power

machin wrote:I would disagree slightly; I'd say Power:weight is what is important for a hill climb car... And whilst you might say I'm being pedantic, it is worth noting that even 5 years ago an electric car could not be anywhere near an ICE-powered car in power:weight terms... Whereas now they're essentially there or thereabouts.

Indeed

Actually they´re well over most powerful ICE-powered cars. Loeb´s Peugeot was 875hhp with 875kg, this one is 1368bhp with 1190kg, well over 1000hp/ton (1150)

And contrary to what some people said above, this actually proves the contrary, it´s not all about power or power/weight ratio, weight is still important, and the car itself, and the driver. This year winner is a lot more powerful and with better power/weight ration than Loeb´s Peugeot, but they still are 50 seconds behind. I´d have loved to know what time they could do without those problems tough

Anycase I´d say driver and weight (315kg difference) are still the two main factors they´re far from Loeb´s time.

machin wrote:IThe electric cars also have an advantage over the ICE's; no performance degradation at altitude... There is a reason that the top drivers are turning up in electric cars these days and it is only partly down to marketing...

As much as I love electric setups, I must say current batteries still lack enough energy density. But even so they´re showing some awesome perfomance, so imagine when some new battery (Lis, LiO, Graphene based batteries...) finally solve their problems... the perfomance jump will be inmense

PPIHC winner battery must be around 400kg, any of the new batteries under development will improve energy density by a factor of 2 at least. That means battery weight will be reduced to a half. Imagine same car, with same power, and 200kg lighter, what actually will be more as they could same some weight on chasis, suspensions, etc.

That´s the reason many drivers and teams are turning up in electric cars, like it or not they´re the future so better if you start learning about them asap

Agreed Machin. The ICE engine is down ~40% at the top compared to electric if we assuming the batteries aren't tapped. Kinda makes me want to pull out my solar car spread sheets and see if its worth running at reduced power to lose some weight on the electric car. Much like under fueling and F1 racer.

Andres125sx wrote:

machin wrote:The electric cars also have an advantage over the ICE's; no performance degradation at altitude...

Not the case this time for the winner, as it lost half the power

machin wrote:I would disagree slightly; I'd say Power:weight is what is important for a hill climb car... And whilst you might say I'm being pedantic, it is worth noting that even 5 years ago an electric car could not be anywhere near an ICE-powered car in power:weight terms... Whereas now they're essentially there or thereabouts.

Indeed

Actually they´re well over most powerful ICE-powered cars. Loeb´s Peugeot was 875hhp with 875kg, this one is 1368bhp with 1190kg, well over 1000hp/ton (1150)

And contrary to what some people said above, this actually proves the contrary, it´s not all about power or power/weight ratio, weight is still important, and the car itself, and the driver. This year winner is a lot more powerful and with better power/weight ration than Loeb´s Peugeot, but they still are 50 seconds behind. I´d have loved to know what time they could do without those problems tough

In the video they said they expected 30 seconds faster

flynfrog wrote:As Tim pointed out the fact the car was electric doesn't mean nearly as much as the amount of HP it has or the aero.

Yes and no, downforce obviously is hugely important, nothing to discuss here

But power wise, each techonogy has its owns advantages and disadvantages. For same power and weight, an electric setup will destroy the ICE because of the much better torque delivery

But that´s not the case today, as EV are still heavier than his (same power) ICE competitor because of the battery, so they´re difficult to compare, it will always depend on the track, specific setup of each one, and specially the type of competition.

PPIHC probably is one of the best scenarios for EV today, as they don´t need too much range. For any other longer competition, ICE are still faster


Anycas I think this is like comparing bikes vs cars, choose some conditions if you want A to win, or some others if you want B to win

langwadt wrote:In the video they said they expected 30 seconds faster

thanks, that´s interesting, so they´d still be around 20 from Loeb´s time

Now we only need to put Loeb into that electric car to see if he can improve Millen´s time by 20 seconds, it´s only a 3%

Nice video I didn´t watch when Red Bull released it to conmemorate first aniversary of the record

It´s the whole race with onboards cameras and Loeb commenting

http://www.redbull.com/es/es/motorsport ... documental

An interesting thing he said when reaching 3800 meters high:

Loeb wrote:You really start to feel the lack of oxigen at this point, the engine is working well because we have a compensation with the turbo

I am not buying that he lost 30 seconds with his issue. He splits were very similar to Tajima's. So unless he Tajima lost 30 seconds in the same parts of the track, I am calling 30 seconds an exaggeration.

Name LapTime Speed Section 1 Section 2 Section 3 Section 4
Rhys Millen 9:07.222 78.944 1:33.862 2:09.320 2:41.088 2:42.952
Nobuhiro Tajima 9:32.401 75.472 1:38.775 2:18.765 2:41.679 2:53.182

Rhys Millen's run is still impressive as the Peugeot budget was surely much larger than his.

Someone stated that an ICE is going to lose 40% power from top to bottom of the mountain. I bet that number is for a non-turbo motor as a turbo will lose a significantly smaller amount.

Andres125sx wrote:

langwadt wrote:In the video they said they expected 30 seconds faster

thanks, that´s interesting, so they´d still be around 20 from Loeb´s time

Now we only need to put Loeb into that electric car to see if he can improve Millen´s time by 20 seconds, it´s only a 3%

Loebs time is so stupidly fast compared to anything else:

2012:
1 Rhys Millen 9:46.164
2 Romain Dumas 9:46.181
3 Carlin Dunne 9:52.819
4 Greg Tracy 9:58.262

2013:
1 Sebastien Loeb 8:13.878
2 Rhys Millen 9:02.192
3 Jean-Philippe Dayraut 9:42.740
4 Paul Dallenbach 9:46.001

2014:
1 Romain Dumas 9:05.801
2 Greg Tracy 9:08.188
3 Hiroshi Masuoka 9:12.204
4 Clint Vahsholtz 9:54.700

2015:
1 Rhys Millen 9:07.222
2 Nobuhiro Tajima 9:32.401
3 Paul Dallenbach 9:36.496
4 Jeff Zwart 9:46.243

SteveRacer wrote:
Someone stated that an ICE is going to lose 40% power from top to bottom of the mountain. I bet that number is for a non-turbo motor as a turbo will lose a significantly smaller amount.

40% is to sea level and yes a turbo helps but there isn't much O2 up there.

langwadt wrote:

Andres125sx wrote:

langwadt wrote:In the video they said they expected 30 seconds faster

thanks, that´s interesting, so they´d still be around 20 from Loeb´s time

Now we only need to put Loeb into that electric car to see if he can improve Millen´s time by 20 seconds, it´s only a 3%

Loebs time is so stupidly fast compared to anything else:

Yes agree

It was the perfect match, best rally driver ever, profesional team, and unlimited car manufactured by a big company with lots of experience.


But that IMO proves how good Millen´s time is, as he does not have one single of all those parameters... and his car suffered a mechanical failure. It´s really impresive

I don't think the T16 is really an unlimited car but more a marketing exercise for the 208 series. The ultimate ICE car will be something like a LMP or formula style car and not a hatch back with bits of a 908 skin grafted onto it. However I doubt very much any manufacture will produce a car designed start to finish for the fastest possible time up pikes peak, and if they did I bet it would electric for greatest marketing benefit.

Not so quiet.

Tajima also had problems with brakes...

That siren does seem incongruous...