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With fully active aero, extremely clever traction and braking control along with stability control systems the tyres will be given an easier life to some degree. But granted, getting both track level performance with road level durability will hugely difficult. Indeed, the tyres will be the real story in this whole escapade.

Tim.Wright wrote:The wiper is the least of their worries. I did a few calcs in another discussion about this today...

Try finding tyres which will support a 1000+kg car giving around 1000+kg of downforce while cornering at 3G and topping out at 300+km/h while being road homologated, treaded and somewhat durable and somewhat cost effective.

In my opinion it's not possible within the constraints of a production car programme. You basically need a tyre as grippy as an F1 tyre but as strong as a truck tyre.

The fact that it has been cited as a 2 seater luxury car means it will never hit any decent weight target so the tyre requirements are going to be simply mental.

In addition, try finding a driver that can cope with the forces involved in getting a vehicle around a circuit that quick

There was thread about production cars having F1 levels of downforce earlier. It is entirely possible to create a production car that is road legal and creates more downforce than a Formula One car in my opinion. One of the major problems would be developing a tyre that could convert that downforce into grip in a meaningful fashion.

The other problem is that a road car needs to produce MORE downforce than an F1 car to equal it's cornering performance because:

1. It weighs more
2. It's tyres have a lower coefficient of friction

A 700kg F1 car needs 2100kgf of cornering force to make 3G. A 1500kg road car needs 4500kgf. Essentially you need a downforce to weight ratio of at least 1.5 at cornering speeds. The mythical McLaren F1 has a downforce to weight ratio of around 0.4... So they need to be at least three times better than that.

I did a calc earlier today that a 1000kg car needs a Cz of around 8.0 to hit 3G. An F1 car has a Cz of around 2.0-3.0.

A fan car would do the job but the problem is always going to be the tyres. Nothing exists even close to what is required.

Blaze1 wrote:There was thread about production cars having F1 levels of downforce earlier. It is entirely possible to create a production car that is road legal and creates more downforce than a Formula One car in my opinion. One of the major problems would be developing a tyre that could convert that downforce into grip in a meaningful fashion.

Consider the end consumer.

They have no problem having these cars shipped around the world with a team of engineers to run them.

If they need to put special tires on this to make it lap that fast - that's no issue, the car will be plenty quick on road legal tires. Those tires will STILL be specially developed for this specific car.

I dont see any problems with regards to the tires.

SR71

SR71 wrote:

Blaze1 wrote:There was thread about production cars having F1 levels of downforce earlier. It is entirely possible to create a production car that is road legal and creates more downforce than a Formula One car in my opinion. One of the major problems would be developing a tyre that could convert that downforce into grip in a meaningful fashion.

Consider the end consumer.

They have no problem having these cars shipped around the world with a team of engineers to run them.

If they need to put special tires on this to make it lap that fast - that's no issue, the car will be plenty quick on road legal tires. Those tires will STILL be specially developed for this specific car.

I dont see any problems with regards to the tires.

SR71

The grip to load ratio of a tyre isn't linear, so the more load the more difficult it become to extract performance past a certain point.

Blaze1 wrote:

SR71 wrote:

Blaze1 wrote:There was thread about production cars having F1 levels of downforce earlier. It is entirely possible to create a production car that is road legal and creates more downforce than a Formula One car in my opinion. One of the major problems would be developing a tyre that could convert that downforce into grip in a meaningful fashion.

Consider the end consumer.

They have no problem having these cars shipped around the world with a team of engineers to run them.

If they need to put special tires on this to make it lap that fast - that's no issue, the car will be plenty quick on road legal tires. Those tires will STILL be specially developed for this specific car.

I dont see any problems with regards to the tires.

SR71

The grip to load ratio of a tyre isn't linear, so the more load the more difficult it become to extract performance past a certain point.

Oh I realize the special case we're talking about but I'm assuming this car is well into development and the claims being made are headline grabbing but most likely based in some sort of reality.

I'd imagine this thing is going to have FANS. This would be the most obvious area of development yet to be exploited to its full potential that is banned in F1.

Do fans help solve your Tire problem? Yes, yes they do.

SR71

I foresee problems with this project.

Firstly, and with due respect, Aston Martin don't have much in the way of technical expertise. They loan engines and software from Mercedes and rumours are surfacing that even switchgear from higher end Mercs will be making an appearance in a DB11 near you.
So perhaps they have gone to Red Bull to get some expertise.

Red Bull have plenty expertise in bending air. And experts in spending lots of money.
So perhaps they went to AM?
Now Red Bull may be footing the bill, getting a high end brand like Aston Martin to varnish some sheen into the mix. If this is the case, then Red Bull are well and truly looking at establishing themselves as a supercar manufacturer.
The problem is, will anyone at either Red Bull or AM have any clue how to build a car with such lofty targets?

The might of VW tried and failed repeatedly with the Veyron, it had quite the bumpy gestation period if anyone cares for this sort of thing. And that's with VW expertise, and more cash to burn than Red Bull, and a simpler brief - Faaaahkin fast and luxurious - as odd as I find said brief.

Tyres were a pertinent point raised on the post by Blaze1(nice name.... ).

The cost for a set on the Veyron is....£23500 sterling...or $35k for our US cousins.
Obviously you can work out that it doesn't actually use 23.5k's worth of rubber. The reason it cost so much is due to monumental development costs. Millions, to the point VW had to help Michelin out with monies...
Apparently the belt inside the tyre will self destruct after 15 minutes at full pelt in a Veyron, at 407km/h.
The saving grace is you run out of fuel after 12 minutes of full throttle.
And then you need to send your wheels to France, and only in France to get the tyres changed!
Sacre bleu!

Now Red Bull want a car that goes as fast as this, but also has the downforce of an F1 car....scratch that...more DF than any car Red Bull has ever made?
Good luck rubbering that bad boy up.
And then you have the inevitable effects of aerodynamics. If this is going to have such copious DF, a cross wind will send it careering across lanes, leading to the mandatory lawsuit.
A headwind will kill the top speed, and a tail wind will have drivers shooting past stop signs and red traffic lights. Ok maybe that is a bit too far... but things will get hairy.

The only way this car will work, the only way, is if a sheeeit ton of money is poured into this project, teething problems overcome, prospective owners be superlicence holders, then the car is driven on race tracks only, or if on public roads that they be closed so you may have freedom of the road. Sheikhs, Sultans, Barons, Despots everywhere rejoice.

Then, maybe.

imo LMPs are a pretty good example of how difficult it is. LMPs have more downforce, more power (and possibly more grip) yet, due to (mainly) the weight they are slower than F1 cars. And LMPs are solely used for racing.

Now Aston Martin wants to build a usable, road-legal car that is quicker than an F1 car, and i really don't think it is currently(or ever at all) possible to do so. The main points here are the "usable" and "road-legal" parts. I don't think fancy stuff like fans fit in the category usable.

There is never anything wrong with aiming high, but to me this sounds a bit over-the-top.

Fans hill help creating more downforce which is basically vertical pressure on the contact patches. You still need rubber able to cope with that pressure in order to convert that downforce into cornering speed.
IMO the secret will be in tyre width, since there's a limit of pressure the rubber can withstand, you can lower that pressure by increasing the area on which the force is distributed.
As for technologies banned in F1 that will be used on the car, my guess is active suspension rather than fans. For some reason I don't think "blowing stuff from the road on whoever comes behind you" as a very marketable concept.

wesley123 wrote:imo LMPs are a pretty good example of how difficult it is. LMPs have more downforce, more power (and possibly more grip) yet, due to (mainly) the weight they are slower than F1 cars. And LMPs are solely used for racing.

Now Aston Martin wants to build a usable, road-legal car that is quicker than an F1 car, and i really don't think it is currently(or ever at all) possible to do so. The main points here are the "usable" and "road-legal" parts. I don't think fancy stuff like fans fit in the category usable.

There is never anything wrong with aiming high, but to me this sounds a bit over-the-top.

Agreed. Weight kills everything. It is not rare to see cars able to generate more downforce than a Formula One car, but even so none comes close to F1 laptimes simply because of weight.
If even on endurance prototypes the weight is keeping them from reaching F1 laptimes, now picture that on a car that has to withstand several safety concerns, and even some comfort ones as well (they did say usable).
I say it's pretty much impossible, especially for only a million dollars.

DiogoBrand wrote:Fans hill help creating more downforce which is basically vertical pressure on the contact patches. You still need rubber able to cope with that pressure in order to convert that downforce into cornering speed.
IMO the secret will be in tyre width, since there's a limit of pressure the rubber can withstand, you can lower that pressure by increasing the area on which the force is distributed.
As for technologies banned in F1 that will be used on the car, my guess is active suspension rather than fans. For some reason I don't think "blowing stuff from the road on whoever comes behind you" as a very marketable concept.

I agree with you.

DiogoBrand wrote:Fans hill help creating more downforce which is basically vertical pressure on the contact patches. You still need rubber able to cope with that pressure in order to convert that downforce into cornering speed.
IMO the secret will be in tyre width, since there's a limit of pressure the rubber can withstand, you can lower that pressure by increasing the area on which the force is distributed.
As for technologies banned in F1 that will be used on the car, my guess is active suspension rather than fans. For some reason I don't think "blowing stuff from the road on whoever comes behind you" as a very marketable concept.

You blow the air behind you when you have a race car because you can, doesn't mean it's the only place to blow air.

You can also slow the air down.

Active suspension is a given on hyper and supercars and becoming standard on most luxury cars. You're suggesting they are hinging F1 level performance on that? I dont think so. I do agree with you the tires will probably be something new.

There are no wings on the launch poster sketches. Historically speaking sketches like that reference production intent. Again, I'd imagine this project is well into development and beyond concept phase. The timeline suggests this - cars take years.

No wings means fans. If you only allowed the fans to run when the GPS recognized a race track you could handle debris...

Every hypercar sold has track modes, Bugatti has a special key for top speed, how is this simple multi-mode principal going over so many peoples heads? It's VERY fast if you want to goto the grocery store. It's UN-GODLY fast if you put it in track mode.

SR71

A lot of people are bringing up valid points like pedestrian impact requirements, etc..

However there are ways around these laws with low-volume production. If they are clever enough with the legal stuff they can skirt these issues - Arial Atom being a clear example.

The only thing I can say for sure, and I bet I'm not alone, is that although I doubt they'll achieve what they're saying, I'm really willing to see them try.