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Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:16

What's the point of being an engine manufacturer then ?

Every engine would have the same max power, but the better manufacturer could still have more torque at lower RPM, lower consumption (and so less initial race fuel weight) and so on.
Moreover if the max power increases year by year engine manufacturers could improve till when the max fuel flow become again the limiting factors, but until then some other engine manufacture could join the F1.
After al when there was the NA engines they FIA introduced a maximum RPM limiter firstly set to 20000RPM, then to 19000RPM and then to 18000RPM and for a NA engine with fixed displacement and same architecture when you limit RPM is as if you limit max power. So what was the point of being an engine manufacturer in the latest NA years?

Xwang wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:24

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:16

What's the point of being an engine manufacturer then ?

So what was the point of being an engine manufacturer in the latest NA years?

There were still differences in engine output.
Also, that's when the sport lost Honda, Cosworth, BMW and Toyota, so maybe there wasn't really a point being an engine manufacturer ?

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:33

Xwang wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:24

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:16

What's the point of being an engine manufacturer then ?

So what was the point of being an engine manufacturer in the latest NA years?

There were still differences in engine output.
Also, that's when the sport lost Honda, Cosworth, BMW and Toyota, so maybe there wasn't really a point being an engine manufacturer ?

They all got out when the global economy went pop. Very few manufactures stick around when times are tough and they are really going to half to work hard for good publicity.

The FIA seems hell bent on making it a psuedo spec series like Indy Car.

I get the reasons why, just wish it wasn't so.

I personally find the qualifying spectacle to be more exciting than the race itself.

That said, there had to be more ROI from F1 than what the manufacturers spend, and for most, it's just not so.

I do worry the FIA is trying to engineer themselves out of a cost / poor racing situation and will make it more complicated and worst in the long run. Engineers and technophiles have a habit of doing that. Unstable rules always create more costs. NASCAR / IRL have their own issues, but a stable rule set isn't one if them and that's attractive to teams. I caution the FIA to not replicate NASCAR's Car of Tomorrow debacle.

dans79 wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:36

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:33

Xwang wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:24

So what was the point of being an engine manufacturer in the latest NA years?

There were still differences in engine output.
Also, that's when the sport lost Honda, Cosworth, BMW and Toyota, so maybe there wasn't really a point being an engine manufacturer ?

They all got out when the global economy went pop. Very few manufactures stick around when times are tough and they are really going to half to work hard for good publicity.

I agree, however I was just poining out that the last years of NA engines was not at all a good time to be a manufacturer.

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:46

dans79 wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:36

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 16:33

There were still differences in engine output.
Also, that's when the sport lost Honda, Cosworth, BMW and Toyota, so maybe there wasn't really a point being an engine manufacturer ?

They all got out when the global economy went pop. Very few manufactures stick around when times are tough and they are really going to half to work hard for good publicity.

I agree, however I was just poining out that the last years of NA engines was not at all a good time to be a manufacturer.

For sure, because the only time you where allowed to change anything was for reliability or safety reasons. Even then the FIA had to be convinced it was actually a reliability or safety concern before you could proceed.

Let's say that Mercedes has a really powerful party mode that puts a lot of stress on the engine and a race mode that because of that party mode stress has to be much gentler on the engine. Wouldn't a ban on the party mode mean that Merc now can turn up the race mode a bit since the extra stress is taken away?
Will this lead to even stronger Mercs in race trim?

nokivasara wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 17:46

Let's say that Mercedes has a really powerful party mode that puts a lot of stress on the engine and a race mode that because of that party mode stress has to be much gentler on the engine. Wouldn't a ban on the party mode mean that Merc now can turn up the race mode a bit since the extra stress is taken away?
Will this lead to even stronger Mercs in race trim?

The FIA has a habit of making decisions that only causes unforeseen (to them) circumstances / issues and just complicates the whole process even more.

We've been through this before on the amateur levels. At the end of the day, no matter what the rules are, the same teams / drivers are always at the front.

nokivasara wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 17:46

Let's say that Mercedes has a really powerful party mode that puts a lot of stress on the engine and a race mode that because of that party mode stress has to be much gentler on the engine. Wouldn't a ban on the party mode mean that Merc now can turn up the race mode a bit since the extra stress is taken away?
Will this lead to even stronger Mercs in race trim?

Yes, that's how I see it.
Say they trade 0.6 s per qualy lap for 0.1s per race lap. That's enough for them to still lock up the front row and finish the race another 6s ahead of the competition. Of course this is an over-simplification but the point still stands that they seem to be able to push the engine further than the competition and one way or another this results in an advantage.

There's another potential can of worms here:
What happens if a team comes up with an in-between mode that is actually too aggresive for race and ask the FIA for permision to change components for realibility reasons ? How would the FIA answer this ?

Up next:
Banning non sustainable modes as they're not road relevant.

MtthsMlw wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 18:09

Up next:
Banning non sustainable modes as they're not road relevant.

Would anyone be shocked?

The FIA seems a bit like a lost puppy in trying to decide what they want F1 to be.

FIA destroying F1 step by step. At the end we'll have every part on the car standardized. Absolutely unexciting stuff.

I think some of the recent engine rules have been sensible.
Limiting the number of dyno hours was a very good call since it encourages better engineering and is a very effective cost saving measure. This goes hand in hand with with limiting the number of new engine specs.

Overall it is a fairly balanced approach which limits spending to some extent while still allowing development.

Banning qualy modes on the other hand looks too much like a knee jerk reaction which will cause many headaches for teams but won't affect the show at all.

Mudflap wrote: ↑

12 Aug 2020, 18:33

I think some of the recent engine rules have been sensible.
Limiting the number of dyno hours was a very good call since it encourages better engineering and is a very effective cost saving measure. This goes hand in hand with with limiting the number of new engine specs.

Overall it is a fairly balanced approach which limits spending to some extent while still allowing development.

Banning qualy modes on the other hand looks too much like a knee jerk reaction which will cause many headaches for teams but won't affect the show at all.

I agree with this.

F1, without intervention, was going to destroy itself.

Technical changes will benefit the teams that are most proficient in technology. The gap to Mercedes will only get larger.

If FIA wants to do something that will be "exciting" to the average fan, they should leave the constructor's championship alone, and instead, rotate the drivers among the cars. Twenty races, twenty cars, twenty drivers. Each driver gets one turn in each car during the season. That would make an "exciting" driver's championship while still awarding the best constructor.