F1technical.net

I have a question which possibly is good for the ying yang thread:

what would happen if we wouldn't have the rpm-limit? Would the engine suppliers stretch the rpm to the limits of the Physik? Or would the limited fuel flow rate prevent the engine suppliers from using very high rpms?

The fuel flow limit is (assumption) already prohibiting them from using the max 15k rpms now.

dren wrote:Not at the injectors, supplied to the injectors.

5.10.4 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.

According to the FIA 2014 Technical Regs I have published 3rd July 2013 (which i just checked is the latest published version on the FIA website), 5.10.4 reads very differently and is marked as altered:

5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank.

So is there a later revised version?

dren wrote:The fuel flow limit is (assumption) already prohibiting them from using the max 15k rpms now.

Apparently the is going to be the case. I've heard 12,500 as a max RPM number given fuel flow.

But as mentioned earlier the rev limit could hold place during downshifts.

wuzak wrote:

xpensive wrote:They can complain all they like and until their eyes bleed green, but as long as the flow metering device reports nothing more than the 27,8 g/sec, then what?

I think a cheating system would be quite easy to spot.

I also think that the system would have to be inspected and approved by the FIA.

To detect a fuel-line after the measuring device that xpands a few percentages to hide a 50 Hp boost for a second or two?

I think not, if the FIA is impotent enough to allow the flapping Red Bulls they will surely not find an antidote for this.

OK so I was thinking about the effects of limited fuel flow with a cap at 10,500 rpm.

Here's a picture of power output vs rpm (pulling it totally out of my, erm, imagination)



Apparently the engine have a pronounced power peak at 10,500 rpm. There is a question where the slope would be steeper, I hope some more knowledgeble people can enlighten me on the subject.
The driver will have option of upshifting at the power max so the engine would work at "Band A" rpm band, or after the max "Band B" (and of course somewhere in between).
These two options would present a driver with different engine behavior and one or the other may be benefcial for a given set of conditions.

Here are some of my thoughts:

Speed and gear
- at lower speed the acceleration is limited by traction, so the driver want a more "progressive" engine. Shifting within "band A" would allow to limit wheelspeen and use more throttle earlier.
- at higher speed the acceleration is limited by power available, also it is beneficial to accelerate faster to spend more time at higher speed on the straight. So the driver would want max power possible as early as possible which makes shifting within "band B" more likely.

Qualifying vs race
- with limited amount of fuel shifting within the "band A" gives opportunity to save fuel, so in the race probably the drivers would tend to shift more within the "band A". In qualifying they would probably shift more in the "band B" then in the race.

I think fixed ratios and engine with a power peak would allow much more different strategies for extracting the maximum performance, and we would likely see much higher disperity in how the drivers use their engines.
Looking forward for that!

PS leaving the implications of HERS out of the picture completely which may add another dimension.

aussiegman wrote:

dren wrote:Not at the injectors, supplied to the injectors.

5.10.4 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.

According to the FIA 2014 Technical Regs I have published 3rd July 2013 (which i just checked is the latest published version on the FIA website), 5.10.4 reads very differently and is marked as altered:

5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank.

So is there a later revised version?

dren wrote:The fuel flow limit is (assumption) already prohibiting them from using the max 15k rpms now.

Apparently the is going to be the case. I've heard 12,500 as a max RPM number given fuel flow.

the footer says july 3rd, but it is named "1-2014 TECHNICAL REGULATIONS 2013-Published on 08.07.2013.pdf"

..
5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature
and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA
data logger.
5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed
wholly within the fuel tank.

timbo wrote: The driver will have option of upshifting at the power max so the engine would work at "Band A" rpm band, or after the max "Band B" (and of course somewhere in between).
These two options would present a driver with different engine behavior and one or the other may be benefcial for a given set of conditions.

I believe the shift point will be above the peak and will result in a band centered roughly over the peak because this area has the highest energy (roughly the integral of the power curve).

I agree with richard, you guys are way too serious for this thread, please take it to the stoichiometric society on the other one?

aussiegman wrote:

dren wrote:Not at the injectors, supplied to the injectors.

5.10.4 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.

According to the FIA 2014 Technical Regs I have published 3rd July 2013 (which i just checked is the latest published version on the FIA website), 5.10.4 reads very differently and is marked as altered:

5.10.4 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank.

So is there a later revised version?

Hmm...I think your version must be revised, I need to go DL it. Mine seems to have a typo (5.10.3 and 5.10.4 are redundant):

5.10.3 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.
5.10.4 Homologated sensors must be fitted which directly measure the pressure, the temperature and the flow of the fuel supplied to the injectors, these signals must be supplied to the FIA data logger.
5.10.5 Only one homologated FIA fuel flow sensor may be fitted to the car which must be placed wholly within the fuel tank.

A driver might have to upshift to get in the high power band!

At first glance, delivering an extra 100hp might seem impossible and the story just to be politics. But the more you look, the more you see holes.
Everything about flow rate monitoring in the FIA 2014 Technical Regs can be summarised as:

1. The FIA will place a single gauge in the fuel tank.
2. The SECU supplies all other sensors.
3. The output logs of the teams sensors will be made available to the FIA data logger.
3. Injector sensors will measure only pressure, temperature and pressure (pressures higher than 100 bar are forbidden).

In all this, the humble fuel pump/filtration system which juggle/compartmentalise pressure variations have been overlooked; check Benetons 1994 fuel cheating saga which could not (emphasis on "not") be proven by the FIA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formu ... ontroversy

The teams can also vary SECU calibration parameters to some degree. Bring in a couple of hacker whizzes and those parameters could become chasms.

GrandAxe wrote:At first glance, delivering an extra 100hp might seem impossible and the story just to be politics. But the more you look, the more you see holes.
Everything about flow rate monitoring in the FIA 2014 Technical Regs can be summarised as:

1. The FIA will place a single gauge in the fuel tank.
2. The SECU supplies all other sensors.
3. The output logs of the teams sensors will be made available to the FIA data logger.
3. Injector sensors will measure only pressure, temperature and pressure (pressures higher than 100 bar are forbidden).

In all this, the humble fuel pump/filtration system which juggle/compartmentalise pressure variations have been overlooked; check Benetons 1994 fuel cheating saga which could not (emphasis on "not") be proven by the FIA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Formu ... ontroversy

The teams can also vary SECU calibration parameters to some degree. Bring in a couple of hacker whizzes and those parameters could become chasms.

Not quite. Max fuel pressure is 500 bar. The Gill sensor will have integrated pressure and temp measurement plus enough intelligence to calculte mass flow from the specfic fuel data and the integral of mass flow.

The sensor is monitoring what is sent to the injectors...it could be a long way to the injectors, as x has pointed out.

Tim.Wright wrote:

timbo wrote: The driver will have option of upshifting at the power max so the engine would work at "Band A" rpm band, or after the max "Band B" (and of course somewhere in between).
These two options would present a driver with different engine behavior and one or the other may be benefcial for a given set of conditions.

I believe the shift point will be above the peak and will result in a band centered roughly over the peak because this area has the highest energy (roughly the integral of the power curve).

yeah, but the area depends on the slope, width of band and a profile of the peak. So it might be that peak is over to one side or another. Also, I imagine that having peak at lower speed (=higher initial acceleration) might be beneficial over a straight.