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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 15:00
by Phil
Andres125sx wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 11:23
Obviously we will need them, at least while batteries does not improve some orders of magnitude, but maybe we´ll need 1/10 or 1/20 of current fuel stations, only in inter-city roads, or at the exit of cities, but not all around as we need now with fuel stations
Not sure i agree with those numbers. We need them, and i’d guess just about as many as we have petrol stations. Why? Because it’s a question of quantity and how long they “occupy” their slot. In a petrol vehicle, the refueling all can be wrapped up in 5 minutes. With BEVs, sure, the demand for charging is less when everyone does so over night, but likewise, those that do need to charge will occupy that slot longer. And in an envisioned future where everyone will have a BEV, this will amount to many many cars. Less stations and you will have more people flocking to them causing delays etc...
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 15:14
by hollus
Of course a charging slot for an EV can be a few lines painted in the ground and a very long wire or essentially a rail of plugs.
A "charging slot" for petrol looks like a very specific spot in the ground exactly 1-2m in front of the pump, which itself tends to be exactly on top of the fuel deposit.
The second one looks exactly like a current petrol station.
The first one looks almost exactly like a current parking lot.
A current petrol station services 5-10 cars at a time. For 2-3 minutes each. A parking lot can easily service 100 cars at a time, for 20-60 minutes each.
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 16:04
by Big Tea
hollus wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 15:14
Of course a charging slot for an EV can be a few lines painted in the ground and a very long wire or essentially a rail of plugs.
A "charging slot" for petrol looks like a very specific spot in the ground exactly 1-2m in front of the pump, which itself tends to be exactly on top of the fuel deposit.
The second one looks exactly like a current petrol station.
The first one looks almost exactly like a current parking lot.
A current petrol station services 5-10 cars at a time. For 2-3 minutes each. A parking lot can easily service 100 cars at a time, for 20-60 minutes each.
This is what is needed. If supermarkets had literally just a meter/controller (bring your own plugs and lead) many of the standard parking areas could be adapted. Double this up with 'membership' where shopping and power is discounted and it would be very attractive. Even places like Mcdonalds could combine a snack and quick charge.
Near me, Ikea have a parking area for charge-while-u-shop and free coffee while you wait if you are in one such membership scheme
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 16:24
by Phil
hollus wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 15:14
Of course a charging slot for an EV can be a few lines painted in the ground and a very long wire or essentially a rail of plugs.
A "charging slot" for petrol looks like a very specific spot in the ground exactly 1-2m in front of the pump, which itself tends to be exactly on top of the fuel deposit.
The second one looks exactly like a current petrol station.
The first one looks almost exactly like a current parking lot.
A current petrol station services 5-10 cars at a time. For 2-3 minutes each. A parking lot can easily service 100 cars at a time, for 20-60 minutes each.
Good point. Which brings us to profitability and cost. The envisioned parking lot ("electric charging parking area") sounds expensive. You need land/area, that costs money, which adds a cost to the electricity to make it worthwhile for someone to run such a "electric charging area".
Just as petrol stations are monetized too, obviously, but it just seems simpler compared. You effectively have a few slots and have a large throughput. Electric, you need space and area and time.
Doable for sure, but not that simple.
I guess my point is; assuming more people will buy BEVs in the future, this will increase the demand for public charging stations. But you will need large investments to build the necessary infrastructure to accommodate enough cars to make it worthwhile for privateers/businesses to build these stations and make a viable business out of it. If many people however charge their cars over night because that's all it needs, how likely will it be that we will see these public charging stations popping up in large quantities replacing petrol-stations?
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 16:35
by izzy
Big Tea wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 16:04
This is what is needed. If supermarkets had literally just a meter/controller (bring your own plugs and lead) many of the standard parking areas could be adapted. Double this up with 'membership' where shopping and power is discounted and it would be very attractive. Even places like Mcdonalds could combine a snack and quick charge.
Near me, Ikea have a parking area for charge-while-u-shop and free coffee while you wait if you are in one such membership scheme
yes or even better induction charging. Shop n Charge, is how it'll go i think, just park and it happens while you shop, it could be 'free' or included even
petrol stations will gradually disappear like phone boxes and the main routes will have service stations with really fast charging to go with the shops and restaurant
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 16:40
by izzy
Phil wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 16:24
I guess my point is; assuming more people will buy BEVs in the future, this will increase the demand for public charging stations. But you will need large investments to build the necessary infrastructure to accommodate enough cars to make it worthwhile for privateers/businesses to build these stations and make a viable business out of it. If many people however charge their cars over night because that's all it needs, how likely will it be that we will see these public charging stations popping up in large quantities replacing petrol-stations?
i don't think you need any more land, you can just add charging into existing car parks. They have to increase the power supply, which might not be huge, like replacing a cable with a bigger one and a transformer with a bigger one
they've already started doing kerbside charging, like
https://www.connectedkerb.com/
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 17:52
by Andres125sx
All of you are discussing about charging ports at different points of the city, and that is exactly what that youtuber and myself are trying to explain, that is NOT necessary, not even today. Who needs more than 200miles/300km of daily range? Some people, but maybe just a 5-10%, and those will keep using their ICE cars so charging ports into the city are simply not necessary. Watch the video again, they never used any public charging point, overnight charging is enough even for some people in rural areas
Ok some charging ports will be needed for people who didn´t get used to connect their car at home yet, but some, no need to instal a charging port at every single parking slot as you´re discussing. Look at situation today, public charging ports are almost non existant, but even so there are some EVs at every city. I don´t think they´re doing magic to use their EVs, even when current EVs are the most limited in range we will ever see.
Basically there´s no need at all to waste 2 minutes in the petrol station, nor 15 minutes in the fast charging port, ironically slow night charging is faster (no need to waste a single minute, arrive home, connect the car to the plug and forget it), more convenient, much better for the battery, more affordable, and for 90% of people more than enough. The 10% who need more will keep using ICEs meanwhile
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 18:53
by izzy
Andres125sx wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 17:52
All of you are discussing about charging ports at different points of the city, and that is exactly what that youtuber and myself are trying to explain, that is NOT necessary, not even today. Who needs more than 200miles/300km of daily range? Some people, but maybe just a 5-10%, and those will keep using their ICE cars so charging ports into the city are simply not necessary. Watch the video again, they never used any public charging point, overnight charging is enough even for some people in rural areas
Ok some charging ports will be needed for people who didn´t get used to connect their car at home yet, but some, no need to instal a charging port at every single parking slot as you´re discussing. Look at situation today, public charging ports are almost non existant, but even so there are some EVs at every city. I don´t think they´re doing magic to use their EVs, even when current EVs are the most limited in range we will ever see.
Basically there´s no need at all to waste 2 minutes in the petrol station, nor 15 minutes in the fast charging port, ironically slow night charging is faster (no need to waste a single minute, arrive home, connect the car to the plug and forget it), more convenient, much better for the battery, more affordable, and for 90% of people more than enough. The 10% who need more will keep using ICEs meanwhile
yes it's a fair point, i suppose it's natural to worry about it with it being new and being such a problem if you did run totally out of battery when you're out somewhere. Also there are a lot of people who can't home charge yet, or easily
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 20:06
by Big Tea
Andres125sx wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 17:52
All of you are discussing about charging ports at different points of the city, and that is exactly what that youtuber and myself are trying to explain, that is NOT necessary, not even today. Who needs more than 200miles/300km of daily range? Some people, but maybe just a 5-10%, and those will keep using their ICE cars so charging ports into the city are simply not necessary. Watch the video again, they never used any public charging point, overnight charging is enough even for some people in rural areas
Ok some charging ports will be needed for people who didn´t get used to connect their car at home yet, but some, no need to instal a charging port at every single parking slot as you´re discussing. Look at situation today, public charging ports are almost non existant, but even so there are some EVs at every city. I don´t think they´re doing magic to use their EVs, even when current EVs are the most limited in range we will ever see.
Basically there´s no need at all to waste 2 minutes in the petrol station, nor 15 minutes in the fast charging port, ironically slow night charging is faster (no need to waste a single minute, arrive home, connect the car to the plug and forget it), more convenient, much better for the battery, more affordable, and for 90% of people more than enough. The 10% who need more will keep using ICEs meanwhile
But I doubt 50% of people will have access to charge at home, especially in town where the electric car comes into its own. There will have to be 'public' charging
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 22:01
by strad
it could be 'free' or included even
Business' don't do much of anything for free. Electricity costs money and they won't just absorb it. There would have to be a metered charge for the charge time.
How do you envision this parking lot/charging lot? Are those slots close to the door so the ICE drivers have to park farther out from the door? Customers would hate that.What about people who pull in park their car and leave it there for 4 or 5 hours or more sucking up the business' electricity? The business and other customers wouldn't really like that.
Think about the people who nurse a coffee at McDonalds for three hours while surfing the net for free. Same thing except taking up a slot, charging their car on the supermarkets dime.
None of the above sounds like a good idea to me.
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 22:19
by nzjrs
Andres125sx wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 17:52
All of you are discussing about charging ports at different points of the city, and that is exactly what that youtuber and myself are trying to explain, that is NOT necessary, not even today. Who needs more than 200miles/300km of daily range? Some people, but maybe just a 5-10%, and those will keep using their ICE cars so charging ports into the city are simply not necessary. Watch the video again, they never used any public charging point, overnight charging is enough even for some people in rural areas
Its the city that is the problem. My anecdote: In the last 10 years I have lived in 8 apartments, all of which with on-street only parking and no possibility of a charging port / overnight charge.
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 22:56
by izzy
strad wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 22:01
it could be 'free' or included even
Business' don't do much of anything for free. Electricity costs money and they won't just absorb it. There would have to be a metered charge for the charge time.
How do you envision this parking lot/charging lot? Are those slots close to the door so the ICE drivers have to park farther out from the door? Customers would hate that.What about people who pull in park their car and leave it there for 4 or 5 hours or more sucking up the business' electricity? The business and other customers wouldn't really like that.
Think about the people who nurse a coffee at McDonalds for three hours while surfing the net for free. Same thing except taking up a slot, charging their car on the supermarkets dime.
None of the above sounds like a good idea to me.
they already give £5 off petrol if you spend £60, at 15p/kwh that's 33 kwh of charge, it's worth it to them to get customers in. And often they say parking is only free for 2 hours kind of thing, it's easy with number plate recognition or just put up with a small number of chancers, or have the charging plates on a timer perhaps
they can already do what they like with the car park layout, like some bays with extra width for kids, whatever, that's a separate issue, don't get me started about SUV's and where i'd put them
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 18 Apr 2020, 23:11
by henry
VW have a deal with Tesco in the U.K. to have chargers at their stores. Free for 7kWh.
To make charging more accessible, the 7kW fast chargers will be available free of charge. But even if you decide to use the rapid 50kW charger you'll only pay a small fee in line with the going market rate.
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/electric/ ... artnership
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 19 Apr 2020, 12:50
by Andres125sx
nzjrs wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 22:19
Andres125sx wrote: ↑18 Apr 2020, 17:52
All of you are discussing about charging ports at different points of the city, and that is exactly what that youtuber and myself are trying to explain, that is NOT necessary, not even today. Who needs more than 200miles/300km of daily range? Some people, but maybe just a 5-10%, and those will keep using their ICE cars so charging ports into the city are simply not necessary. Watch the video again, they never used any public charging point, overnight charging is enough even for some people in rural areas
Its the city that is the problem. My anecdote: In the last 10 years I have lived in 8 apartments, all of which with on-street only parking and no possibility of a charging port / overnight charge.
Some public charging ports will be necessary, agree, but some, not at every parking slot wich is very different.
Also, there are two tendencies to consider if we´re talking about not so close future, people moving out of the cities, and people into the cities, specially new generations, consider that owning a car is not necessary at all. Public transport and car sharing are enough, so that need is also at its max today, but will be decreasing with time same as EV range is at its minimum today, so another reason that need will be decreasing with time
I wouldn´t invest on companies installing public charging ports as a long term investment
Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?
Posted: 19 Apr 2020, 12:57
by Big Tea
I know this is the electric car post, but Hydrogen keeps popping its head up so I thought I would post this
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-52328786
Just another story? "The authors say it can store the large volume of gas needed for practical travel without needing expensive tanks."