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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 04 Jul 2020, 00:56
by GhostF1
trinidefender wrote: ↑03 Jul 2020, 16:27
Listening to the Honda PU on free practice it sounds incredible....all the odd noises, honda definitely doing some interesting things.
Agreed. I was watching onboards of Max and it sounds so much more unique now. All its intricacies have been taken up a level and as such it has gotten even more unique. I wonder if what Asaki mentioned, the combustion system they developed getting close to final design has a part to play. And also... man those downshifts... They are glorious
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 05 Jul 2020, 21:58
by timbo
With much focus on Ferrari struggles it went pretty much unnoticed that MV did almost the same exact time as last year. We can probably trust that RBR did some progress with the car, so did Honda lost something performance-wise?
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 01:26
by 1158
timbo wrote: ↑05 Jul 2020, 21:58
With much focus on Ferrari struggles it went pretty much unnoticed that MV did almost the same exact time as last year. We can probably trust that RBR did some progress with the car, so did Honda lost something performance-wise?
Max was 6 kph off Ham in the speed trap, but Albon was only 3 kph off. I think it has more to do with chassis instability than the PU, although they need to work on both areas. Max said he left a couple tenths on the track, but he still wouldn't have beaten Merc.
I'm more concerned about the electrical issues. That can be hard to figure out. It could be the chassis wiring, interference, software, bad steering wheels. Anything.
AT did not have the electrical issues which I find interesting.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 08:43
by Bill
Why would Honda lose power they were not cheating infact they gained a lot power it has been one year since the last year Austrian race ,the problem is Str or Alpha has adopted a high rake car philosophy so there Top speed has suffered as a result so making comparisons between two Honda powered car becomes difficult.looking on sector times Rbr only lost 2 tenth on straights that with allegedly poor setup.so I think they can Match Mercedes.
Honda are doing a good job already ahead of Renault and Ferrari.Mercedes started pu development in 2007 so had a 5 year head start plus experience with Kers .They were pretty reliable during testing so I think they got greedy with upgrades therefore suffering small issues on reliability sides.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 09:41
by fellowhoodlums
I think a number of failures were all about the kerbs shaking the cars. Too easy to point finger at reliability.
Mechanical, sensor, electrical - can all be explained by hitting the kerbs. Some cars/drivers more than others.
It'll be interesting to see what mitigation teams do this weekend. Drivers keeping off kerbs except in quali/first 3 laps? softer suspension? torque setting on bolts that holds the cars together? extra tape on the wiring harness?
Who knows.
Steven
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 09:55
by TimW
One of the last TD's introduced fuel flow limits at part throttle, as I understand that may affect performance a bit (in not being able to burn extra fuel to recharge batteries over the MGU-???)
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 15:22
by timbo
Bill wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 08:43
Why would Honda lose power they were not cheating infact they gained a lot power it has been one year since the last year Austrian race ,the problem is Str or Alpha has adopted a high rake car philosophy so there Top speed has suffered as a result so making comparisons between two Honda powered car becomes difficult.looking on sector times Rbr only lost 2 tenth on straights that with allegedly poor setup.so I think they can Match Mercedes.
But why didn't RB make any progress in Qualy? Last year MV did 1:03.439, this year it's 1:03.477.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 15:26
by Alexf1
Maybe 2020 Honda engine is aimed more towards low altitude where most tracks are.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 15:43
by Bill
Str made progress,Rbr already said the got the setup wrong they are other factors like temperature.nobody can denier that spec 4 Honda brought last year in Japan was clear progress it wil be sill. What I am curious about is Ferrari their Italian media laughs off and disrespected Honda in the past but now they have an engine that is 0.6 tenth behind it must be humiliating.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 06 Jul 2020, 16:22
by Wouter
Interview with Tanabe-san. Google translate:
--- Do you already know what caused the electrical system trouble?
Tanabe TD: There are many elements, so it is still in progress.
-Is it possible that the two units have the same cause?
Tanabe TD: No, the symptoms are completely different.
-I think Verstappen had a symptom of sudden engine cutoff at the end of the straight, but what about Albon?
Tanabe TD: It was a misfire-like symptom.
-Did it happen just before it stopped?
Tanabe TD: Yes.
-Was Verstappen's emergency pit stop to reset the system?
Tanabe TD: That's right. It's very primitive, but sometimes the electrical system can be fixed by turning off the power and resetting. But still it wasn't.
─You also changed the steering wheel when you entered the pit.
Tanabe TD: Yes. I don't think there is a causal relationship, but I exchanged them just in case. However, there is no relation between driver's operation and trouble.
─ Other cars have various troubles, and it is said that one of the causes is the vibration when riding on a curb. How about that?
Tanabe TD: I don't know so far.
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/597489?all
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 07 Jul 2020, 01:51
by 63l8qrrfy6
gruntguru wrote: ↑01 Jul 2020, 23:46
Awesome that they have such a handle on engine degradation that they can deliberately trade some engine life for temporary performance and still have the confidence to use that engine at the next race.
I think that the in cylinder pressure sensors are a key enabler of that since they allow the severity of knock to be finely quantified and controlled.
Teams were very good at controlling "engine damage" back in the N/A days but that was made easy by the absence of knock and the relatively narrow engine performance settings. In those days, the cylinder pressure was easily mapped onto an engine speed and load histogram which allowed fatigue and wear accumulation to be calculated.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 07 Jul 2020, 05:12
by GhostF1
Wouter wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 16:22
Interview with Tanabe-san. Google translate:
--- Do you already know what caused the electrical system trouble?
Tanabe TD: There are many elements, so it is still in progress.
-Is it possible that the two units have the same cause?
Tanabe TD: No, the symptoms are completely different.
-I think Verstappen had a symptom of sudden engine cutoff at the end of the straight, but what about Albon?
Tanabe TD: It was a misfire-like symptom.
-Did it happen just before it stopped?
Tanabe TD: Yes.
-Was Verstappen's emergency pit stop to reset the system?
Tanabe TD: That's right. It's very primitive, but sometimes the electrical system can be fixed by turning off the power and resetting. But still it wasn't.
─You also changed the steering wheel when you entered the pit.
Tanabe TD: Yes. I don't think there is a causal relationship, but I exchanged them just in case. However, there is no relation between driver's operation and trouble.
─ Other cars have various troubles, and it is said that one of the causes is the vibration when riding on a curb. How about that?
Tanabe TD: I don't know so far.
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/597489?all
This is a little concerning.
Two unrelated issues and they still are not sure what happened with either. I'm hoping they don't rear their head again for this weekend, but I must say, with such a short gap between, I wouldn't be surprised if they run in a reduced output state to ensure the engines make it. Or even introduce new engines and control units now and send the old units back for checks to hopefully be brought back into the pool.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 07 Jul 2020, 09:26
by Jaisonas
GhostF1 wrote: ↑07 Jul 2020, 05:12
Wouter wrote: ↑06 Jul 2020, 16:22
Interview with Tanabe-san. Google translate:
--- Do you already know what caused the electrical system trouble?
Tanabe TD: There are many elements, so it is still in progress.
-Is it possible that the two units have the same cause?
Tanabe TD: No, the symptoms are completely different.
-I think Verstappen had a symptom of sudden engine cutoff at the end of the straight, but what about Albon?
Tanabe TD: It was a misfire-like symptom.
-Did it happen just before it stopped?
Tanabe TD: Yes.
-Was Verstappen's emergency pit stop to reset the system?
Tanabe TD: That's right. It's very primitive, but sometimes the electrical system can be fixed by turning off the power and resetting. But still it wasn't.
─You also changed the steering wheel when you entered the pit.
Tanabe TD: Yes. I don't think there is a causal relationship, but I exchanged them just in case. However, there is no relation between driver's operation and trouble.
─ Other cars have various troubles, and it is said that one of the causes is the vibration when riding on a curb. How about that?
Tanabe TD: I don't know so far.
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/597489?all
This is a little concerning.
Two unrelated issues and they still are not sure what happened with either. I'm hoping they don't rear their head again for this weekend, but I must say, with such a short gap between, I wouldn't be surprised if they run in a reduced output state to ensure the engines make it. Or even introduce new engines and control units now and send the old units back for checks to hopefully be brought back into the pool.
Calm down,t he interview was literally the next day, i wouldnt expect them to find it out in one day.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 07 Jul 2020, 11:55
by Wouter
They already found out yesterday.
Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 07 Jul 2020, 13:42
by nzjrs
Interesting, from my understanding (
viewtopic.php?t=27214) the flywheel is a particularly oscillation sensitive part of the power unit, perhaps this indicates they failures were related to the vibrations from the curbing.
