F1technical.net

From Autosport: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121198

The Japanese manufacturer has spent its remaining four 2015 F1 engine development tokens on an internal combustion engine upgrade, plus associated exhaust parts

....

Honda's chief weakness concerns the efficiency of its MGU-H.

Solving this problem requires a fundamental change in engine architecture, which means the Japanese manufacturer feels it cannot act until the winter, when more development time and tokens will become available.

Speaking to AUTOSPORT before the latest upgrade was confirmed, Honda F1 chief Yasuhisa Arai said: "The logical step is to change the compressor area, but because of the layout that's not going to happen.

"We are still looking to improve the internal combustion side of the engine, but without changing the layout."

dren wrote: That backs up Hughes' article somewhat. I think he had the turbine/compressor confused or perhaps he meant both components.

I am also hearing they have two set-ups in the works from another individual.

I read that Mark Hughes article and was confused. it reads..........

1) Honda made the compressor smaller with belief that it could run it in excess of 130,000 rpm

2) additional speed would allow both MGU and compressor to work to full potential

3) 130,000 rpm was not possible without overheating and blowouts of the units

4) problem was compounded by sensors getting fried

5) to solve the issue turbo was run at a lower speed with them achieving a maximum of 60 hp self sustaining

I thought the regulations placed a barrier of 120,000 rpm as speed of turbo, either Honda read it wrong or Mark Hughes is mistaken.

Honda has just spent the last of the its tokens for the year.

If Honda spends more will they be allowed to race it with some penalty or not allowed to race?

WilliamsF1 wrote:Honda has just spent the last of the its tokens for the year.

If Honda spends more will they be allowed to race it with some penalty or not allowed to race?

Not allowed to race.

WilliamsF1 wrote:[...]I thought the regulations placed a barrier of 120,000 rpm as speed of turbo, either Honda read it wrong or Mark Hughes is mistaken.

Some posts further up I tried to explain.....

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it.

5.2.4 The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the exhaust turbine of a pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched. The rotational speed of the MGU-H may not exceed 125,000rpm.

So between MGU-H and Turbo it can be a gearing, and even a clutch. As it appears to be on a common axis with the turbo in the Honda application, it would have to be a planetary wheel set.

IF it is geared, the turbine/compressor could well be way above 125'000 min-1.
However, I do not think that they have chosen this way. But who knows??

Charlie Whiting has informed teams that they may use their remaining tokens for upgrades and he told them they did not have to race the updated PU's, only prove they've been ran on the test bench.

Alonso is running the updated Honda PU, Button will not, based on current PU mileage.

Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Charlie Whiting has informed teams that they may use their remaining tokens for upgrades and he told them they did not have to race the updated PU's, only prove they've been ran on the test bench.

And Alonso will supposedly do exactly that,run in FP1 than switch to older spec for the rest of the weekend.

GoranF1 wrote:

Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Charlie Whiting has informed teams that they may use their remaining tokens for upgrades and he told them they did not have to race the updated PU's, only prove they've been ran on the test bench.

And Alonso will supposedly do exactly that,run in FP1 than switch to older spec for the rest of the weekend.

Why would you not run an upgraded engine the entire race weekend instead of switching to old spec? It will be good to get a lot of mileage and data about the new spec. Will help for next season prep.

damager21 wrote:

GoranF1 wrote:

Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Charlie Whiting has informed teams that they may use their remaining tokens for upgrades and he told them they did not have to race the updated PU's, only prove they've been ran on the test bench.

And Alonso will supposedly do exactly that,run in FP1 than switch to older spec for the rest of the weekend.

Why would you not run an upgraded engine the entire race weekend instead of switching to old spec? It will be good to get a lot of mileage and data about the new spec. Will help for next season prep.

I believe McLaren did it so they can race it at the next race (where they think it's going to be a better track for them) without putting too many miles on it and without getting a penalty .

WilliamsF1 wrote:

dren wrote: That backs up Hughes' article somewhat. I think he had the turbine/compressor confused or perhaps he meant both components.

I am also hearing they have two set-ups in the works from another individual.

I read that Mark Hughes article and was confused. it reads..........

1) Honda made the compressor smaller with belief that it could run it in excess of 130,000 rpm

2) additional speed would allow both MGU and compressor to work to full potential

3) 130,000 rpm was not possible without overheating and blowouts of the units

4) problem was compounded by sensors getting fried

5) to solve the issue turbo was run at a lower speed with them achieving a maximum of 60 hp self sustaining

I thought the regulations placed a barrier of 120,000 rpm as speed of turbo, either Honda read it wrong or Mark Hughes is mistaken.

I believe this is old information and it is describing the situation at the start of this season. Remember that Honda was "detuned" to prevent frying and qualified behind the Manors. During that period, it was assumed, max power was down 150 bhp, and almost no ers could be deployed, missing another 160bhp. Which makes 300bhp less than Mercedes, now that would be a gp3 engine.

No no haha. I doubt the ICE was down 150hp from other ICE. The engineers aren't that poor at Honda.
you are basically telling me that their ICE had 400hp.

If they were running the turbocharger in a severely detuned manner, then one can safely assume the full 160hp ers deficit plus a significant ice deficit if they cannot achieve enough boost to burn 100kg/hr max fuel flow. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding...

Nickel wrote:plus a significant ice deficit if they cannot achieve enough boost to burn 100kg/hr max fuel flow

What are you talking about?

BBC said the new PU that went into Alonso's car had a completely different exhaust note