F1technical.net

_cerber1 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 07:55

Mahurora wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2020, 21:02

I guess it has been overshadowed by the crash in the openning lap and Lewis' penalty today but it was awseome to see that drag race between Norris and Albon after the SC.

It was on lap 6, Albon got his exit out of turn 10 wrong which lead to getting past by Norris who had a much cleaner turn around the corner thus much faster exit speed. Then suddenly the Redbull accelerating like 80's turbo Honda and catching up and getting ahead by turn 13. Unfortunately Albon was on the outside so he got past once more but I guess Yamamoto wasn't talking out of nothing concerning his recent claims.

In fact, McLaren in Sochi was at the bottom of the top speed rankings. They clearly relied on turns, sacrificing speed on the straights, so that the comparison is not correct. In general, I do not understand people who judge the power of the motor, by the speed on the straight lines, there are several dozen factors that can affect this.

Look at the Ocon-Kvyat duel? Kvyat had a softer line-up, 12 laps younger, slipstream and DRS, but he could not overtake Renault. Under these conditions, having a more powerful motor, overtaking becomes easy.

That's not true either. Sochi is not that easy to overtake at in general. Obviously more power helps, but the differences between the top 3 manufacturers aren't large enough where one just clearly passes another, it's all down to strategy of the driver, making sure he harvests enough energy to defend in the known overtaking zones and he keeps on being smart, hard to keep that level of concentration. If you watch Kvyat, he was faster overall than Ocon and faster down the straights (actually he posted the fastest speed of all this weekend), but Ocon was defending perfectly. Sochi isn't the easiest to overtake at, as noted by most of the drivers.
This screwed a lot of people. Raikkonen was doing the same, defending fantastically even with a speed disadvantage and holding a few people up.

_cerber1 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 07:55

Mahurora wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2020, 21:02

I guess it has been overshadowed by the crash in the openning lap and Lewis' penalty today but it was awseome to see that drag race between Norris and Albon after the SC.

It was on lap 6, Albon got his exit out of turn 10 wrong which lead to getting past by Norris who had a much cleaner turn around the corner thus much faster exit speed. Then suddenly the Redbull accelerating like 80's turbo Honda and catching up and getting ahead by turn 13. Unfortunately Albon was on the outside so he got past once more but I guess Yamamoto wasn't talking out of nothing concerning his recent claims.

In fact, McLaren in Sochi was at the bottom of the top speed rankings. They clearly relied on turns, sacrificing speed on the straights, so that the comparison is not correct. In general, I do not understand people who judge the power of the motor, by the speed on the straight lines, there are several dozen factors that can affect this.

Look at the Ocon-Kvyat duel? Kvyat had a softer line-up, 12 laps younger, slipstream and DRS, but he could not overtake Renault. Under these conditions, having a more powerful motor, overtaking becomes easy.

So Red Bull overtaking McLaren is due to more downforce on the latter but Kvyat not overtaking Renault is due to lack of power on the farmer's car. So why is this suddenly a fair comparison?

You said it yourself that you don't understand people who judge the power by the speed on the straights, yet you just did it yourself

etusch wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 08:36

_cerber1 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 07:55

Mahurora wrote: ↑

27 Sep 2020, 21:02

I guess it has been overshadowed by the crash in the openning lap and Lewis' penalty today but it was awseome to see that drag race between Norris and Albon after the SC.

It was on lap 6, Albon got his exit out of turn 10 wrong which lead to getting past by Norris who had a much cleaner turn around the corner thus much faster exit speed. Then suddenly the Redbull accelerating like 80's turbo Honda and catching up and getting ahead by turn 13. Unfortunately Albon was on the outside so he got past once more but I guess Yamamoto wasn't talking out of nothing concerning his recent claims.

In fact, McLaren in Sochi was at the bottom of the top speed rankings. They clearly relied on turns, sacrificing speed on the straights, so that the comparison is not correct. In general, I do not understand people who judge the power of the motor, by the speed on the straight lines, there are several dozen factors that can affect this.

Look at the Ocon-Kvyat duel? Kvyat had a softer line-up, 12 laps younger, slipstream and DRS, but he could not overtake Renault. Under these conditions, having a more powerful motor, overtaking becomes easy.

I guess Renault uses mgu-k at straights more harder than Honda. At start both Renault put pressure on max and ricci ovetook him but later that they were slower.
In the other hand last sector is also important. If front runner makes gap there you can only close it at straights but can not overtake. This is like AT did at monza vs McLaren.

The start in Sochi has such a long run, I didn’t see a speed deficit by Max, just at the end of the run Bottas attacked Hamilton and that left Max vulnerable to attack, by Ricci. Not losing out on power, just how the battle unfolded. And Max had been putting himself in less risk the last two years. Which is good.

GhostF1 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 08:53

That's not true either. Sochi is not that easy to overtake at in general. Obviously more power helps, but the differences between the top 3 manufacturers aren't large enough where one just clearly passes another, it's all down to strategy of the driver, making sure he harvests enough energy to defend in the known overtaking zones and he keeps on being smart, hard to keep that level of concentration. If you watch Kvyat, he was faster overall than Ocon and faster down the straights (actually he posted the fastest speed of all this weekend), but Ocon was defending perfectly. Sochi isn't the easiest to overtake at, as noted by most of the drivers.
This screwed a lot of people. Raikkonen was doing the same, defending fantastically even with a speed disadvantage and holding a few people up.

Then why don't you admire the Ferrari engine, since many people stumbled over Raikkonen in a straight line? Why don't you say that it is the most powerful?

The whole, my post boils down to one thing, that the judgment about the power of the motor by speed on a straight line is absurd. In qualifying, Lando lost 0.4 seconds to Ricci in the first sector, with an identical engine.

Revs84 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 10:04

So Red Bull overtaking McLaren is due to more downforce on the latter but Kvyat not overtaking Renault is due to lack of power on the farmer's car. So why is this suddenly a fair comparison?

You said it yourself that you don't understand people who judge the power by the speed on the straights, yet you just did it yourself

You misunderstood this part of my post. It's actually sarcasm .

Sieper wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 10:04

etusch wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 08:36

_cerber1 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 07:55

In fact, McLaren in Sochi was at the bottom of the top speed rankings. They clearly relied on turns, sacrificing speed on the straights, so that the comparison is not correct. In general, I do not understand people who judge the power of the motor, by the speed on the straight lines, there are several dozen factors that can affect this.

Look at the Ocon-Kvyat duel? Kvyat had a softer line-up, 12 laps younger, slipstream and DRS, but he could not overtake Renault. Under these conditions, having a more powerful motor, overtaking becomes easy.

I guess Renault uses mgu-k at straights more harder than Honda. At start both Renault put pressure on max and ricci ovetook him but later that they were slower.
In the other hand last sector is also important. If front runner makes gap there you can only close it at straights but can not overtake. This is like AT did at monza vs McLaren.

The start in Sochi has such a long run, I didn’t see a speed deficit by Max, just at the end of the run Bottas attacked Hamilton and that left Max vulnerable to attack, by Ricci. Not losing out on power, just how the battle unfolded. And Max had been putting himself in less risk the last two years. Which is good.

yep I rewatch the start and vers and ricci side by side but ricci was inside.

_cerber1 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 10:30

Revs84 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 10:04

So Red Bull overtaking McLaren is due to more downforce on the latter but Kvyat not overtaking Renault is due to lack of power on the farmer's car. So why is this suddenly a fair comparison?

You said it yourself that you don't understand people who judge the power by the speed on the straights, yet you just did it yourself

You misunderstood this part of my post. It's actually sarcasm .

sarcasm is always tricky. I find that even If I don't very carefully explain the thinking behind a posting it easily gets misunderstood.

agreed it is very hard to tell anything by topspeed, overtakes etc. even if one outdrags the other. Who had a full battery?

You can see this now much more clearly in the race. before people could switch to different engine modes but no longer. so the only differentiator is who is using the battery when (and of course how efficiently it is recharded). Bottas f.e. was out in front by 11 secs or so. spent 3 laps recharging and then took fastest lap by dumping the battery in that one lap. Tire age is also the main differentiator. Hamilton could not mount a challenge on Verstappen with how many? 7-8 lapsolder tires? We are just left guessing at engine performance but sometimes you can try and make an educated guess.

Red Bull already informed Max Verstappen during the race that he lost no less than six tenths on the straight at Valtteri Bottas, giving little hope for the rest of the season. But according to Horner, the gap in Sochi is not indicative.

“This circuit is always difficult for us, we have a lot of clipping here and that just has its effect. The picture is somewhat distorted by the [lack of] generation of energy. But we already knew that before we came here, it would always be a challenge. ”

https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/check ... content=nl

HPD wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 17:08

Red Bull already informed Max Verstappen during the race that he lost no less than six tenths on the straight at Valtteri Bottas, giving little hope for the rest of the season. But according to Horner, the gap in Sochi is not indicative.

“This circuit is always difficult for us, we have a lot of clipping here and that just has its effect. The picture is somewhat distorted by the [lack of] generation of energy. But we already knew that before we came here, it would always be a challenge. ”

https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/check ... content=nl

Yeah I think that's fair. Right now the gap is probably between a couple of tenths to almost five-six tenths in race pace depending on circuit and tyres. Hopefully that will come down a bit next year with some engine gains that will let Max claim a few wins on merit leading up to 2022...which can't come soon enough honestly.

''We have a lot of 'clipping'' Meaning running out of battery power. so that means you need more help from your MGU-H.

That's probably for having a "smaller" turbo than Mercedes PU?

Then why their engine is clipping ? Or is it case for everyone(especially mercedes as a target Pu from performance wise) more or less ? If the case is same for others too then that 0,6 sec comes from İce, if not how mercedes are achieving it ?

Marti_EF3 wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 18:50

That's probably for having a "smaller" turbo than Mercedes PU?

Which turbo will consume more battery, bigger turbo or smaller one ? If bigger turbo does same job with lesser spin and lasts longer during straights, maybe this is answer of my question.

By ''having a smaller turbo'' he means smaller (less powerful) turbine. it is the turbine which harvests energy from the exhaust, and in turn it is the same turbine that powers the MGU-H which in turn will power the MGU-K, which in turn adds power to the ICE crankshaft.

HPD wrote: ↑

28 Sep 2020, 17:08

Red Bull already informed Max Verstappen during the race that he lost no less than six tenths on the straight at Valtteri Bottas, giving little hope for the rest of the season. But according to Horner, the gap in Sochi is not indicative.

“This circuit is always difficult for us, we have a lot of clipping here and that just has its effect. The picture is somewhat distorted by the [lack of] generation of energy. But we already knew that before we came here, it would always be a challenge. ”

https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/check ... content=nl

Yep repeated here.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... nda-power/

Remember what I said about the MGUK!!

Russia has less braking zones and it affected RedBull.

We also saw in Austria qualifying where Mercedes could release the brake earlier than Max. I am no driver to undstrand what that means but it was something very noticeable.

Said before. I am going with Wazari's insight that their Mercedes MGUK is working under very harsh conditions. Conditions that other manufacturers do not want to push.

Granted the ICE is still where the big money is.. But just saying that MGUK is another area Honda is working on feverishly this year.

Funny how Mercedes avoid starting their engines unnecessarily with the MGUK. Does anyone else see what this means?

Make a guess.