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turbof1 wrote:This is actually old news. A few hours after the race they were already taking about standing waves. And seems to be true, as it is coming from multiple sources (except from Pirelli of course). The waves apperently are being created by weaving kevlar in the steel belt.

Actually I haven't found any sources but the quote from Ross Brawn. Can you give us some sources particularly for the steel/Kevlar mixing theory?

The biggest issue to get Pirelli to acknowledge the truth, is that there is always an excuse for them. There is always an additional factor that makes the tyre problem manifest. And each time that happens, Pirelli turns the tables and makes the factors looks like those are the problems. if for example the wet tyres would delaminate due the rubber chemically reacting the rain, destabilizing the structure, Pirelli would tell us the rain was too acid.

Above all things I can't stand, are persons who are proven wrong who still cling on their story.

turbof1 wrote:

This is actually old news. A few hours after the race they were already taking about standing waves. And seems to be true, as it is coming from multiple sources (except from Pirelli of course). The waves apperently are being created by weaving kevlar in the steel belt.

Actually I haven't found any sources but the quote from Ross Brawn. Can you give us some sources particularly for the steel/Kevlar mixing theory?

Some tweets from f1 experts, an article on autosport and so on. Do you mind me not doing the effort to look for them ? Can't be bothered at the moment. EDIT: alright, here is one. No mention from the kevlar-added steel belt, but waves nonetheless:
http://www.racer.com/analysis-silversto ... le/301119/

amc wrote:

tpe wrote:Can someone post a close-up picture from the start, just to check if tyres are on the correct side of the car?

...if you zoom in you can see the 'L' on the outside of his left front.
http://www.formula1.com/wi/gi/Lm-S/sutt ... 9ju706.jpg

However, on the way to the grid (on an old set of tyres - note the 'R6' instead of 'L2' written on them), he has the tyres the wrong way round (see the 'L' on the right). Interestingly, these tyres have the 'official' left marked as the 'Mercedes' right, whereas the quali tyres were matched correctly, having the 'official' left as the 'Mercedes' left.
http://www.formula1.com/wi/enlarge/0x0/ ... br1115.jpg
http://www.formula1.com/wi/enlarge/0x0/ ... br1051.jpg

Seems to me that the 'L' you highlight in the 2nd and 3rd images are the drivers initials 'LH', as opposed to the 'L2' from the first. Incidentally, the first also contains the 'LH'.

Now I'm pretty sure I never saw one of those barcode stickers with the letter 'R' for right.

Guess we've been seing information where there isn't none.

turbof1 wrote:Some tweets from f1 experts, an article on autosport and so on. Do you mind me not doing the effort to look for them ? Can't be bothered at the moment. EDIT: alright, here is one. No mention from the kevlar-added steel belt, but waves nonetheless:
http://www.racer.com/analysis-silversto ... le/301119/

Ok, now I know what you mean. This refers to Gary Anderson's full article. He actually spoke of shockwaves induced by the grasscrete blocks which isn't the same as a standing wave. The first is a simple dynamic load that is easier to consider for the load calculation. The standing waves that Ross is talking about are different and more critical. They happen when a spring/damper system gets excited with frequencies close to the own natural frequency of oscillations. In such cases a system can go into resonance which would increase the loads beyond the initial shock that provided the excitement. Engineers are much more wary of the second kind of events because the loads are bigger and usually not included in the design calculations. You simply design to avoid such load cases. Engineering students are shown the case of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge which got excited by gales and went into resonance that destroyed the structure.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw[/youtube]

IMO both Michelin 2005 and Pirelli 2013 had such standing waves and Ross has confirmed that opinion. A pity that Mercedes did not share the pictures Ross is talking about. Sometimes one picture says more than a thousand words. If people would see the standing wave deformations they would be easily convinced that something critical has happened.

This is Ralf Schumacher's tyre that send him into the wall in Indianapolis.
The two failure events that we are now talking had both steel bands in the carcass as the common denominator. Slightly different construction with Kevlar instead of steel would shift the natural frequency of the side walls away from the critical value. That's why one can hope the solution for Germany will be safe and the final solution for Hungary will be even safer.
But ultimately bigger wheels for low profile tyres would be the preferred solution long term.

2013/2014 LMP1 tyres
The tyres could be designed for their main purpose and not be the biggest element of the spring/damping system of the cars. Tyres should primarily provide grip and traction. The suspension is better equipped to apply the springing and damping properties that engineers need.

A while back strad posted a video of the McLarens at Spa 2011 - and on the Kemmel straight the sidewall was quite clearly harboring a standing wave. I'd post a link here - but then I remember strad did a wipe of his server a while ago and so the file isn't there anymore.

Tyres should primarily provide grip and traction. The suspension is better equipped to apply the springing and damping properties that engineers need.

Those statements are so obviously correct, it is a great mystery why the masters of Formula One reject both concepts out of hand.

MOWOG wrote:

Tyres should primarily provide grip and traction. The suspension is better equipped to apply the springing and damping properties that engineers need.

Those statements are so obviously correct, it is a great mystery why the masters of Formula One reject both concepts out of hand.

It takes leadership and a strategic perspective to implement fundamental changes to F1. Todt did that with the turbo engines and the fuel mass flow formula. I think they were very fundamental changes and more important than the wheels and tyre sizes. The teams will not accept change where it is likely to upset their competitive order. I reckon that tyre sizes will be on the agenda when the turbo engines have settled a bit in 2015. Perhaps it would be best to shorten the next supply contract by simply extending the actual contract by one year.

The tyres could be designed for their main purpose and not be the biggest element of the spring/damping system of the cars. Tyres should primarily provide grip and traction. The suspension is better equipped to apply the springing and damping properties that engineers need.

I totally agree, but you see,,It would require going back to the cars having real suspensions.

rjsa wrote:Now I'm pretty sure I never saw one of those barcode stickers with the letter 'R' for right.

Guess we've been seing information where there isn't none.

what are you on about ? we have several Pictures...

Never thought I'd see the day.

Hembrey: "I have to say last weekend was our responsibility," Hembery told AUTOSPORT after arriving at the Nurburgring.

"We allowed the teams to invert the tyres when we shouldn't have done.

"With the cars going much quicker this year that creates different loads. With the inverted tyres you create a weakness point, and that was the issue.

"There were secondary issues, which have been mentioned, but I don't want to take away from the fact it was our responsibility.

Pirelli have finally admitted responsibility. That took a long time. Too long. Hopefully we can move on now. Pirelli, just be upfront. Mistakes happen. Fans get over it. Talking rubbish and acting like a spoilt 2 year old, is another matter. Lets hope this new responsible pirelli stays, keeps us informed and acts in the sports best interest. They might just win some of us over.

Huntresa wrote:

rjsa wrote:Now I'm pretty sure I never saw one of those barcode stickers with the letter 'R' for right.

Guess we've been seing information where there isn't none.

what are you on about ? we have several Pictures...

All the pictures I saw had only the L barcode sticker, I there where R sided one I coincidentally missed them all.

EDIT: Oh I found one now, I stand corrected.

Pirellis taking of responsibility is a step in the right direction. But by no means a compensation for the bull they have been feeding us. I do see that they have undertaken a huge effort to provide safer rear tyres in just four days. You have to give them a lot of credit for making that work.

The FIA is suppoused to stop cars using high cambers, low pressures and swapping it's tyres.
I wonder how will they do that and what would be the possible punishment lol.

Sevach wrote:The FIA is suppoused to stop cars using high cambers, low pressures and swapping it's tyres.
I wonder how will they do that and what would be the possible punishment lol.

Post race scrut? random checks over the weekend. They can have people in the pit garages..No big deal..Fines/bans can be imposed as they go against the tech directive..