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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Dec 2015, 01:23
by Wazari
trinidefender wrote:
1. Do you think that the layout will remain the same with the turbine, MGU-H and compressor in the V? Or do you think there will be small changes to the layout or large changes to the layout.
People are saying that the 2015 turbine is behind the V but to me it looks like it is actually between the V with the wastegates behind the V.
2. Continuing on from point 1. You said that the piping between the compressor and intercooler and intercooler to ICE looks to be quite restrictive and to long. Do you think this will be changed to better suit? Or will a layout change be the only way to achieve this?
3. The changes you described here don't seem to come close to 32 tokens. Are they planning to save a lot of tokens for in season development?
1. I think there will be relatively small changes to the overall layout. I think the turbine, compressor and MGU-H will still be in the V but shifted towards the rear to accommodate plumbing changes.
2. IMO, the piping seemed oddly designed. I believe it will change thus making it necessary to shift the turbo components slightly.
3. I still can't seem to get an exact handle on the token system, but from my understanding, all these changes are supposed to use only about 2/3rds of the available tokens.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 17 Dec 2015, 01:35
by NL_Fer
It was already spoken of, a few pages back, that raising the turbocharger 20mm, would give allot bigger compressor, but only take little more space on top. And i suspect the compact engine needs more cooling.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Dec 2015, 04:15
by davidfroshanzen
Wazari wrote:So this it what I speculate for the PU based on rumblings that have passed my ears. Purely speculation, the PU will receive a completely redesigned turbocharger with a revised turbine and compressor. A new MGU-H unit that will be more efficient in harvesting energy in generator mode and using less energy in motor mode with the same output. Redesigned exhaust manifolds and a completely redesigned cooling system. That's what I'm guessing for next year.
How about mgu K?,,, i heared they have too small compared other competitor,,,
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Dec 2015, 08:30
by hemichromis
I did notice that the MGU-K did look very small, maybe only 60% of the size of rivals but as it is a component the has a known power limit it must surely be designed to run at that power level?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Dec 2015, 10:04
by FW17
hemichromis wrote:I did notice that the MGU-K did look very small, maybe only 60% of the size of rivals but as it is a component the has a known power limit it must surely be designed to run at that power level?
Was it smaller than the Mclaren 300HP unit?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Dec 2015, 10:17
by hemichromis
Eric Boulier:
“According to the technical regulations, the maximum energy used by the battery to power the MGU-K is limited to 4MJ. The thing is, we use these 4MJ before finishing the lap, so can’t deploy any further energy thereafter. At Spa-Francorchamps for instance, Fernando [Alonso] and Jenson [Button] could use the ERS on only one of the two big straights, and even then, not all the time.”
so the MGU-K is working as expected.
I do not know the exact size of the MGU-K but proportionally looks a lot smaller than the mercedes version.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Dec 2015, 12:37
by Thunder
Good Interview with Arai:
http://en.f1i.com/magazine/37265-honda- ... -2015.html
.....so we keep the philosophy and concept of the size zero package and we improve on it next year to have a more sophisticated size zero.”
Even smaller?
“It’s very difficult because we’re almost at zero! But we use that particular design, a very specific and aggressive design, and we should keep that. We need more improvement but during this year I felt a big improvement on both sides, the engine and the chassis and aero. At every race we tried a lot of parts and we have a lot of data, and I hope that we can make a better package for next year.”
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 19 Dec 2015, 13:28
by Joseki
What is the biggest positive of this season?
“As an actual race I’d say round five in Spain and round 16 in Austin. in Austin we felt progress on the track, so that was a very good, impressive race. Also in the middle of the season in August we found out what our weak point was in a more concrete way. Even though we understood that our package’s weakness came from the MGU-H and ERS deployment, it had been a struggle to pinpoint the cause. Fortunately, in August everything became clear and we were free to start fully rectifying the situation.
“It had a huge impact because with the discovery we realised that in the races and testing we need more energy to actually use the deployment. But in the meantime we feel we cannot change the turbo and the MGU-H in the actual season because it is a layout issue, so it is very difficult to change everything. So we realised it but could not change it.”
So they basically started the 2016 project in late August early September I believe.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 20 Dec 2015, 11:33
by Juzh
MUCH smaller. This is probably 2 times the size.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 20 Dec 2015, 12:44
by Brian Coat
If we assume nobody with a rule book mis-sizes MGU-K does a (possibly) smaller unit imply a faster revving MGU-K for Honda?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 20 Dec 2015, 13:22
by hurril
Juzh wrote:
MUCH smaller. This is probably 2 times the size.
I think this is a misunderstanding. I think people looked at the wrong details on the pictures and saw some other piece of machinery instead of the actual MGU-k. I remember there being a discussion about this.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 20 Dec 2015, 13:34
by Andres125sx
hemichromis wrote:
Eric Boulier:
“According to the technical regulations, the maximum energy used by the battery to power the MGU-K is limited to 4MJ. The thing is, we use these 4MJ before finishing the lap, so can’t deploy any further energy thereafter. At Spa-Francorchamps for instance, Fernando [Alonso] and Jenson [Button] could use the ERS on only one of the two big straights, and even then, not all the time.”
so the MGU-K is working as expected.
I do not know the exact size of the MGU-K but proportionally looks a lot smaller than the mercedes version.
MGU-K is working as expected because they´re only using it with energy from battery, wich, as you quoted from Boulier, is very limited.
But main problem for Honda this season was they misjudged the energy mgu-h can harvest, so while other teams can harvest during all the straights wich means mgu-k is working constantly, Honda mgu-k only works when they have energy from the battery.
In other words, Honda mgu-k is working only a small percentage of the lap, while the rest are working a much higher percentage of the lap, wich means even if mgu-k didn´t limit Honda this season, it could in next one when they manage to harvest as much energy from mgu-h as the other PUs and their mgu-k increase its working percentage for each lap.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 20 Dec 2015, 23:43
by noname
Joseki wrote:So they basically started the 2016 project in late August early September I believe.
Too late, I would say.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Dec 2015, 00:00
by godlameroso
So apparently the Honda engine was using 4MJ per lap, but the other engines are probably using what 8MJ per lap? After all, it's only 4MJ from ES to MGU-K, they don't say anything about the MGU-H driving the MGU-K directly. Honda's MGU-K is generating 2MJ that's easy, and I'm sure the MGU-H is providing the other 2MJ, but it's not enough obviously, as everyone else can deploy much longer. I hope they leave themselves room to develop the MGU-H in case they can't generate enough energy at the start of the season with it.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 22 Dec 2015, 00:28
by gruntguru
I am sure the number quoted (4 MJ) is just the energy transfer from ES to MGUK which is the limit specified in the rules. Undoubtedly the Honda power unit would be transferring additional energy from MGUH to MGUK.