F1technical.net

IMO there are several benefits:

- no air supply -> no air bottle, no control valves no piping etc. -> better packaging
- reduced complexity
- maybe less friction

On the other hand it is a proven technology.

Holm86 wrote:Why not go desmodromic?? Wouldnt that be optimal?? As far as i can see the regulations dont prohibit this.

I suspect that it would increase the frictional losses. Too many moving parts. That would be detrimental in a formula that rewards efficiency above everything else.

WhiteBlue wrote:

Holm86 wrote:Why not go desmodromic?? Wouldnt that be optimal?? As far as i can see the regulations dont prohibit this.

I suspect that it would increase the frictional losses. Too many moving parts. That would be detrimental in a formula that rewards efficiency above everything else.

I read an article once a while back that described how much power it actually took to turn a normal camshaft with springs and valves at higher RPM's. It was quite alot. But desmodromic valves has the advantage of having no springs. But the force to accelerate the valve in both directions was also substantial. With springed valves you get the force you put into the spring back on the return. But if i remember correctly desmodromic valves needed a little less force.

The real advantage is at very high RPM's where regular valves need pretty hard springs not to float. Desmodromic valves will not float no mater the RPM's. I dont thing friction is a big problem with desmodromic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... c5bpU&NR=1

autogyro wrote:Hydro pneumatic is better but electro magnetic would be best.

That is misleading.
Not with existing technology. Your magnetic field would saturate and your valves will crash.

any ideas of how EM valve actuation capability would compare with existing systems ?
ie how much lower is the max valve acceleration achievable with EM ?

hydraulic lifters are the standard now in production cars, with nominally fixed characteristic
hydraulic lifters were sometimes made to give variable valve timing/lift
do the F1 rules mandate solid lifters ?

Holm86 wrote: I dont thing friction is a big problem with desmodromic.

When you watch that video that you posted you see that rather large friction areas are engaged for a long time. I still think that this is going to generate more frictional losses compared to to air sprung valves.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocfIYUc5bpU[/youtube]

I admit that I love desmodromic systems. They are very elegant. I drive one almost every day in summer - its build into a Roloff 14 bicycle speed hub.

(Can anyone tell me if the cylinder bore is in steel or nicasil/chrome?)

Valves of Titanium?

F1 2014 Engine
1600cc
80mm bore
53mm stroke
Single turbo (six exhaust pipes going into one turbocharger)
Direct fuel injection

5.15.6 Valves must be manufactured from intermetallic materials or from alloys based on Aluminium,
Iron, Nickel, Cobalt or Titanium. However, hollow structures cooled by sodium, lithium or
similar are also permitted.

So Titanium is ok.

Engine block must be made from one of the allowed alloy materials. Thin coatings are allowed.

how many secs or in which way can the more kers be used from 2014 on?

winth304 wrote:how many secs or in which way can the more kers be used from 2014 on?

5.5 Torque control :
5.5.1 The only means by which the driver may control acceleration torque to the driven wheels is via
a single chassis mounted foot (accelerator) pedal.
5.5.2 Designs which allow specific points along the accelerator pedal travel range to be identified by
the driver or assist him to hold a position are not permitted.
5.5.3 The minimum and maximum accelerator pedal travel positions must correspond to the
minimum and maximum available torque with the currently selected power unit torque map.

This means that a secondary system like a push to pass KERS button is prohibited. Electric power can only be fed to the rear wheels by throttle command. Logic tells us that the energy management system in the new SECU must control the dual torque from the ICE and from the electric unit (MGU-K) at all times by a fixed map. The seamless continuous feeding of electric power is also called "true dual torque mode" in this thread. There is also a name change from KERS to ERS for 2014. The elctric unit (MGU-K) can feed recovered kinetic energy electrically to the rear wheels. From 2014 it will also be able to feed recovered heat energy from the electric turbo compounder (MGU-H) to the wheels. So it is now called energy recovery system because we recover more than just kinetic energy. So the answer to your question would be that the ERS will be used all the time when the throttle pedal is pushed, unless of course the system runs out of electric power which is unlikely.

WhiteBlue wrote:

Holm86 wrote: I dont thing friction is a big problem with desmodromic.

When you watch that video that you posted you see that rather large friction areas are engaged for a long time. I still think that this is going to generate more frictional losses compared to to air sprung valves.

I admit that I love desmodromic systems. They are very elegant. I drive one almost every day in summer - its build into a Roloff 14 bicycle speed hub.

There are large friction areas, but the pressures applied to those surfaces are much lighter than traditional valve spring system, no? On a desmodromic valve system, I would guess there is lash in the system as well, so at most one rocker is actually contacting the camshaft.
I used to have a Rolhoff hub on my mountain bike. It was pretty nice, but in the end, my weight weenieness overpowered it.

Do anyone know if the cylinder bore is in aluninium, chrome or steel?

The bore where the pistons work up and down.

I think they use cylinders without liners and Nikasil coating or something sinilar.

Seeing as we know Ferrari ran around Fiorano with the new engine.

Does any footage exist of this? I´ve been looking everywhere but can´t find anything, usually there are guys taking pictures/videos of everything with a ferrari tag on it.

Just curious to hear the difference.
If anyone have some other examples like another branch of motorsport that run similar engines with similar sound please let me know here or PM me thanks.

Nando wrote:Seeing as we know Ferrari ran around Fiorano with the new engine.

Does any footage exist of this? I´ve been looking everywhere but can´t find anything, usually there are guys taking pictures/videos of everything with a ferrari tag on it.

Just curious to hear the difference.
If anyone have some other examples like another branch of motorsport that run similar engines with similar sound please let me know here or PM me thanks.

You sure youre not getting some informations mixed up?? As far as i know Ferrari has only run their new engine on the test bed.

They will sound pretty similar to these. Look from around 8:30 mins.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9wqvR_vCfw[/youtube]