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The Wright TC engine was a bit different from current F1 TERS systems. The Wright TC used blow-down exhaust turbines that were connected to the crankshaft using fluid couplings, which allowed some variation in speed and prevented the turbines from being back-driven by the crankshaft. The engine also used a mechanical supercharger that was driven by the crankshaft.

Tommy Cookers wrote:IMO large losses in blowdown are unavoidable in any intermittent-combustion (eg piston) engine, even a Mazda rotary

You are right. Another way to look at this - even if the exhaust valve had no flow losses and could be instantaneously opened fully at BDC, the pressure remaining in the cylinder prior to EVO represents unused energy which will be lost. The only way to recover this energy is by expanding it further in a piston expander, a blowdown turbine or similar.

riff_raff wrote:The Wright TC used blow-down exhaust turbines that were connected to the crankshaft using fluid couplings, which allowed some variation in speed and prevented the turbines from being back-driven by the crankshaft.

That is a direct attempt at heat loss recovery towards kinetic, bit like that 5-stroke engine which is basically a 4-stroke but with an additional piston just to capture heat and reuse it. An Atkinson cycle with a long enough combustion stroke would be a good alternative to improve thermal efficiency at a smaller cost of mechanical efficiency. Non-Formula one of course.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5mO_xePdok[/youtube]
Inside there somewhere is a rather interesting heat energy recovery system. Maybe hooked up to a exhaust turbine propelled dynamo like MGU-H but a complicated looking exhaust from that V-4. A compound design perhaps one being a turbocharger and the other an MGU-H?

Powerslide wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5mO_xePdok
Inside there somewhere is a rather interesting heat energy recovery system. Maybe hooked up to a exhaust turbine propelled dynamo like MGU-H but a complicated looking exhaust from that V-4. A compound design perhaps one being a turbocharger and the other an MGU-H?

I believe they are using a turbocharger and a separate power turbine driving the MGUH.

wuzak wrote:

Powerslide wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5mO_xePdok
Inside there somewhere is a rather interesting heat energy recovery system. Maybe hooked up to a exhaust turbine propelled dynamo like MGU-H but a complicated looking exhaust from that V-4. A compound design perhaps one being a turbocharger and the other an MGU-H?

I believe they are using a turbocharger and a separate power turbine driving the MGUH.

Yes they are, not compound style though but mounted more like a wastegate but instead an MGU-H.

Hi all,
Very interesting topic, thank you everyone for the nice explanations that you have posted. However, I am missing - and probably is somewhere in this topic but I wasn't able to find it- an explanation on how is actually the energy transformed from heat into electricity.

The heat exhaust is taken (I am not sure if directly from the cylinder or from the turbo waste gate) and then this is converted into electrical power for the MGUH without any kind of limitation in F1. But how is this energy transformed? Do they use thermogenetars or what kind of system do they use to convert this energy? I do not know if the use the thermal gradient to generate the electricity or if they use more complex technology.

Thank you very much!

same question as before ...... same answer

Tommy Cookers wrote:

irsq4 wrote: ... It`s often mentioned in media that MGU-H converts termal energy of exhaust hot gasses into electrical (and MGU-K braking energy)-How, by means of termocouples, termoionic generator or somehow else?

the mgu-k only propels the car or produces (for storage) electricity directly from engine power or by braking the car
the mgu-h only produces electricity (for storage or real-time use by the mgu-k) or turns the compressor part of the turbo
there is no heat-to-electricity conversion of the type you suggest
in 1950s engines of this type the part of the exhaust energy that the turbine can respond to was about 35% of the total exhaust energy

the exhaust turns the turbine which turns the compressor and the mgu-h
the turning mgu-h generates electricity as it is turned
like the power plants that supply our domestic electricity
the mgu-h can act as a generator or as a motor (to drive the compressor), that's why it's called a motor-generator unit MGU

Tommy Cookers wrote:

Tommy Cookers wrote:

irsq4 wrote: ... It`s often mentioned in media that MGU-H converts termal energy of exhaust hot gasses into electrical (and MGU-K braking energy)-How, by means of termocouples, termoionic generator or somehow else?

the mgu-k only propels the car or produces (for storage) electricity directly from engine power or by braking the car
the mgu-h only produces electricity (for storage or real-time use by the mgu-k) or turns the compressor part of the turbo
there is no heat-to-electricity conversion of the type you suggest
but the turbine part ot the turbo responds to exhaust pressure or velocity, so driving the mgu-h to produce electricity
in 1950s engines of this type the part of the exhaust energy that the turbine can respond to was about 35% of the total exhaust energy

Thank you Tommy. But the the energy production you mention here how is it done? I understand that it's the MGUK the one who runs then the wheels but how to get from the gas to the voltage.

He explained it in the post you just quoted.

Hi Tifoso. The exhaust gas turns a turbine. The turbine turns a generator to make electricity.

The terms MGU-H (Heat) and "waste heat recovery" are confusing for most people since an exhaust turbine is driven by gas pressure, flow and kinetic energy. The reality though is that most of the energy extracted from the gas is actually heat energy.

dren wrote:He explained it in the post you just quoted.

As I understood it`s like in f.e. electric rail vehicles. I think (not sure anymore, it was long time I learned that in school) it`s based on different speeds between rotor and electric field generated in unit, then when f.e. speed of rotor is greater than speed of field electrical energy can be sent back to the net, or in this case in baterries. Sure , you have electronic assembly to manage all that and convert AC-IC

There are two separate motor-generator units (MGU).
One is coupled to the crankshaft of the engine and is used either to add its power to that of the engine or generates electric energy driven by the kinetic energy of the car when decelerating - MGU-K.
The other is coupled to the turbine shaft, driven by it and the produced energy is either stored or directly fed to the MGU-K to add power. In motor mode it can spool up the turbine and prevent turbo lag. That's MGU-H.

[quote="Tifoso]

Thank you Tommy. But the the energy production you mention here how is it done? I understand that it's the MGUK the one who runs then the wheels but how to get from the gas to the voltage.[/quote]

the heat energy is really momentum energy from the hot exhaust gases. The inertia of the generator motor and turbine and the back EMF of the generator acts as a load for the hot gases. So as the gases expand through the turbine while pushing the turbine blades it looses momentum and thus temperature.
So it's not really transferring radiation energy to electrical energy. It's more mechanical energy from the hot gas.
It's similar to a hot air balloon that lifts the basket into the air. So its momentum from heat and pressure, to rotational to electrical.

I see Ferrari are alleged to be looking for a new turbo supplier.

Interestingly, the aero-thermal performance of the turbo is now pretty important and in most cases the F1 teams will have better/more aerodynamicists at their disposal than the turbo makers.

I wonder if any of the F1 teams will decide to have a go at their own compressor/turbine aero-thermal work?