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Blame prevents learning

There's a golden nugget of wisdom, sir! =D>

When a few Michelin tires exploded on the last corner at Indianapolis, Michelin immediately took ownership of the problem. By the time the weekend was over, more people were mad at Ferrari and its intransigence than were mad at Michelin.

Any business could learn a lot from how Michelin handled that situation.

Pirelli continues to build a pool of negative feelings toward the company. We have had this debate elsewhere and opinions are like noses - everybody has one. But for me personally? If I went shopping for tires for my daily driver today, I would be FAR more likely to consider Michelin tires rather than Pirellis.

Your mileage may vary. See dealer for details.

MOWOG wrote:

Blame prevents learning

There's a golden nugget of wisdom, sir! =D>

When a few Michelin tires exploded on the last corner at Indianapolis, Michelin immediately took ownership of the problem. By the time the weekend was over, more people were mad at Ferrari and its intransigence than were mad at Michelin.

Any business could learn a lot from how Michelin handled that situation.

Pirelli continues to build a pool of negative feelings toward the company. We have had this debate elsewhere and opinions are like noses - everybody has one. But for me personally? If I went shopping for tires for my daily driver today, I would be FAR more likely to consider Michelin tires rather than Pirellis.

Your mileage may vary. See dealer for details.

Absolutely. Michelin owned up quite well to the Indy problem, and what's more, they found a technical solution and didn't have that problem ever again. Goodyear (in NASCAR) did similar at trouble tracks like Indy and Atlanta in 2008. Goodyear has even been proactive at places it knows will be difficult, for example with dual zone treads at Atlanta. I feel like Pirelli have neither been quick to own up to issues nor find solutions.

Now to be fair, several years ago when I was still working at a tire company and there were troublesome races, I couldn't understand why the company wasn't more defensive about it's product.. that race teams were running extreme car settings or that it's a difficult environment or whatever. In retrospect and with the Pirelli situation as a comparison, I can now see why. Gotta own up to problems, take them on, learn from them, and solve them. Pointing blame elsewhere does indeed prevent learning and comes across as unprofessional after a while.

I do not see why the teams are not responsible for operating inside the limits of a given tire design... F1 to NASCAR.

Safety is not a concern to me. The engineers know where the setup limits are and can develop conservative operating ranges/specifications. If a team chooses to push the limit, then let them and their driver live with the consequences.

How does this differ from fuel usage or rpm limits in NASCAR. If a team runs out of fuel or blows an engine from revving to high, no one complains.

Brian

I'd speculate that the issue is the box Pirelli wants to put the teams in is perhaps smaller than what they're accustomed to. Or smaller than what's sensible.

We have to be realists here.

The teams aren't going to sit inside some tiny conservative box that any supplier paints for them if there are substantial performance gains outside of it. You're at the top level of European racing, you get paid to win. Do what it takes. Beyond that, experienced engineers know what's reasonable to expect out of a car or tire. Locking up inside tires under the brakes is a reality of road racing, should at least be able to get around without blowing out.

Are these tires still so much more delicate than every other previous supplier? Even after several years in the sport? Why? My opinion is still... this is a top tier in auto racing - the products suppliers bring to the table should be top notch.

the products suppliers bring to the table should be top notch.

Bernie disagrees with you, no matter how sensible your position may be. He ORDERED Pirelli to spice up the show and, since they know damn well what side their bread is buttered on, they complied.

All the complaining from the teams and from the fans like you and me should be directed c/o B. Ecclestone. And he could care less.

If you want to do business in Formula One, you do what Bernie wants - or else.

hardingfv32 wrote:I do not see why the teams are not responsible for operating inside the limits of a given tire design... F1 to NASCAR.

Safety is not a concern to me. The engineers know where the setup limits are and can develop conservative operating ranges/specifications. If a team chooses to push the limit, then let them and their driver live with the consequences.

How does this differ from fuel usage or rpm limits in NASCAR. If a team runs out of fuel or blows an engine from revving to high, no one complains.

Brian

You forgot about others on the racetrack

MOWOG wrote:Bernie disagrees with you, no matter how sensible your position may be. He ORDERED Pirelli to spice up the show and, since they know damn well what side their bread is buttered on, they complied.

I still call that a half truth at most. I don't think Pirelli could deliver a better product than they currently bring.

Another thing I don't understand is, what the hell the benefit of Pirelli being in Formula 1 is.

As a customer, the Pirelli f1 campaign is not doing ANYTHING to make me buy a Pirelli tyre over a competitor. In fact it is the very opposite....

If Pirelli supplies unsafe tyres there is only one party responsible, Pirelli. Not the FiA, not Bernie, not the teams! The supplier has the sole responsibility to supply a safe product. No amount of manuvering will stop the buck at another desk. The rest is simply bullshit that yoiu can tell kids. I'm not going to be impressed by it and nobody else who has a bit of common sense left. The fans will vote with their pocket books and those who think as me will not buy Pirellis product. I don't want to offend anybody. I'm just saying it as I see it. If you disagree, fine! That is your opinion and I'm going to respect it but you view is not for me.

MOWOG wrote:

the products suppliers bring to the table should be top notch.

Bernie disagrees with you, no matter how sensible your position may be. He ORDERED Pirelli to spice up the show and, since they know damn well what side their bread is buttered on, they complied.

All the complaining from the teams and from the fans like you and me should be directed c/o B. Ecclestone. And he could care less.

If you want to do business in Formula One, you do what Bernie wants - or else.

I´ll say that this also is a half truth but for other reasons. (i think Pirelli can produce better tires if they want)

But nobody asked for exploding tires.

Update:

OCTOBER 14, 2013

Pirelli renews quit threat amid push for tests

Behind closed doors, Pirelli is stamping its feet as it pushes to prepare for 2014. International reports, including in Spain's El Mundo Deportivo and by Italy's Italiaracing, say the sport's tyre supplier wants all the major F1 teams to take their 2013 cars to two tyre tests in Abu Dhabi in November and December.

"We can't carry on going round in circles and decide to do nothing," Paul Hembery said recently. "Something has to change." Pirelli's frustration is with the lack of cooperation from the teams amid the Italian marque's tumultuous 2013 season, where the criticism of its products has been at fever pitch.

So the reports say Pirelli will demand the Abu Dhabi tests when F1's new strategic committee meets next Monday. "Pirelli wants the same treatment that Bridgestone and Michelin had, when they could test their tyres at length," read the El Mundo Deportivo report.

Correspondent Raymond Blancafort said that if the teams or the FIA refuse, Pirelli president "Marco Tronchetti Provera could leave F1 without tyres" for 2014. Italiaracing's Massimo Costa added: "Pirelli is tired of tainting its name because of a formula one in which it is forbidden to test in a proper way".

They should have done that much earlier. The teams have a tendency to go over the top in their suspicions about others getting a competitive advantage. And Bernie is also known for his asinine proposals to spice up the show. If the PTB conspire to make Pirelli's life different Pirelli must show them the muscle and insist on common sense. They must supply safe tyres. So either they design them in a way that they are safe and over engineered or they design them with fancy degradation schemes and lots of testing. The teams and Bernie can't have their cake and eat it.

I suppose the teams motivation to test with Pirelli will be clouded by their need not to reveal the torque control systems they will be using in 2014.
Could be the less than satisfactory regulation enforcement from the FIA has shot the tyre supply issue in its foot.

Jersey Tom wrote:

MOWOG wrote:Bernie disagrees with you, no matter how sensible your position may be. He ORDERED Pirelli to spice up the show and, since they know damn well what side their bread is buttered on, they complied.

I still call that a half truth at most. I don't think Pirelli could deliver a better product than they currently bring.

That's a strange position when Pirelli have previously delivered a better product than the current one. Sure maybe they can't deliver tires on the level of Bridget one, but their previous(11-12) F1 tires are better along with hurd they dliver to other series.

I still call that a half truth at most. I don't think Pirelli could deliver a better product than they currently bring.

Yes Tom...We all know you have a hard on for Pirelli.