F1technical.net

bhall II wrote:

Chene_Mostert wrote:

turbof1 wrote: [...]

(als, what do you exactly mean with "vsd"? Hard to keep
up with acronyms!)

Vsd ( variable speed drive) aka MCU aka drive.

[...]

Analogous to an engine's ECU, the MCU controls the ERS; it's not a motor.

http://i.imgur.com/vcpCuZN.jpg

With that in mind, the 120kW limit on MGU-K output should be more apparent.

Good to see you figured out what a vsd is, aka vfd(variable frequency drive) and you are right, its not a motor, a 22,2v 50A drive will allow a motor to deliver 1,110Kw
A 22,2v 90A drive will allow the same motor to deliver 1,998Kw
The drive determines the motor power, not the motor.

Chene_Mostert wrote: Good to see you figured out what a vsd is, aka vfd(variable frequency drive) and you are right, its not a motor, a 22,2v 50A drive will allow a motor to deliver 1,110Kw
A 22,2v 90A drive will allow the same motor to deliver 1,998Kw
The drive determines the motor power, not the motor.

I agree with that, but the motor still has a limited output of 120kw. This has to be sorted by the MCU of course, which determines wastegate opening, turbo spooling, ES storing or usage.

For the matter of record, I do understand your point of view now. It took a while, but if I am correct you are wondering how you prevent excess energy being converted into excess power beyond 120kw. I think I have answered that several times now, but it does change the context by quite a bit.

I'm btw by no means an engine specialist. I do know however you have to abide the 120kw rule. There's no way around that. The rules don't really specify any protocol on how to prevent it, but there are tools to do so luckily.

there is no requirement that all electrical energy used for motor action spends any time as DC
the power limit of motor action refers to DC power - (such as would come to a motor via the ES)
it does not refer to electrical power - (ie electrical power of any/all DC power and any/all AC power)

what rule stops a motor being powered in real time down a non-DC route ?
there appears to be no such rule limiting power down such a route

whatever type of machines are used (here) they are all working on and/or producing suitable streams of pulses of electrical energy
(it's close to meaningless to even classify these machines as DC or AC)
there is no overwhelming need for this energy to ever become DC (except that fraction which is or has been stored)
eg we can get perfect motor action whenever we feed suitable pulses to the MGU-H armature

ok maybe the rules are just badly written
but they seem to leave a door wide open
there is no rule that says the MGU-K torque and rpm are measured and this power product is limited to the nominal 120 kW

of course none of this matters if we cannot get over 120 kW from the recovery turbine
or if we choose not to because of the cost in crankshaft power

The "unlimited energy from the the mgu-h allows the MGU-K to be run at the max 160hp for more than 33 seconds per lap which is the approximate maximum time the ES could provide the extra power.

I think that is where the advantage lies. Honda were not able to produce enough "extra" MGU-H energy to benefit but Mercedes always have and now Ferrari do too.

Chene_Mostert wrote:Good to see you figured out what a vsd is, aka vfd(variable frequency drive) and you are right, its not a motor, a 22,2v 50A drive will allow a motor to deliver 1,110Kw
A 22,2v 90A drive will allow the same motor to deliver 1,998Kw
The drive determines the motor power, not the motor.

Confusing the MCU for a motor is the only way I can see how someone might look at the regulations and see anything other than the 120kW limit in question. Otherwise, 5.2.3 specifies how the MGU-K is connected to the powertrain, and Appendix 3 specifies the maximum rate in which energy can be transferred across that connection. Everything else is irrelevant.

The whole confusion seems to be one of conflating energy with power.

For the MGU-H, the arrow goes both ways to take power from the charging system and back from the charging system to the engine. I assume this is where you are allowed to utilize energy for the waste gate.

Are there other ways to utilize this stored energy back to the engine to increase power, i.e. exhaust scavage

Chene_Mostert wrote: My question is, how is electric motor power verified at 120kw?

Volts and Amps.

Between the controller (through which all energy is directed) and the motor.

hurril wrote:The whole confusion seems to be one of conflating energy with power.

Exactly.

The arrow that is labelled "UNLIMITED" is referring to energy-per-lap not power (energy-per-second).

gruntguru wrote: Exactly.

in reference to a previous post of yours about "sucking the pistons" GG, can that idea be used to get around the 120kw limit ?
so that you get the basic hp from the ICE, + the 120kw from the K motor, + extra hp from the crankshaft from reducing pumping losses with the electric turbo mode, but ALSO extra hp by creating a negative pressure in the exhaust manifold,
ie, suck the pistons up the cylinder during the exhaust stroke by overdriving the electric turbo (air motor assistance)

I think some people are wasting their time trying to explain why that MGUK shaft power is limited to 120 kW. Save your energy my friends.

The reason the MGUH to the MGUK is umlimited is to account for the efficiency of the MGUK.

If my MGUK is 50% efficieint it would require 240 kW from MGUH, but it's ouput would still be at the limit of 120 kW.

This is the reason for stating unlimited. There is no loop hole for the MGUK to output 120kW.

turbof1 wrote:I compensate that with productivity. You know: scratching my butt, yawning, hitting the delete button .

We must respect the power of The Delete!

ringo wrote:I think some people are wasting their time trying to explain why that MGUK shaft power is limited to 120 kW. Save your energy my friends.

The reason the MGUH to the MGUK is umlimited is to account for the efficiency of the MGUK.

If my MGUK is 50% efficieint it would require 240 kW from MGUH, but it's ouput would still be at the limit of 120 kW.

This is the reason for stating unlimited. There is no loop hole for the MGUK to output 120kW.

It is simpler than that. "Unlimited" means no limit on the ENERGY per lap.

1. From ES to MGUK there is a limit of 4 MJ/lap.
2. From MGUH to MGUK there is no energy limit.

In both 1 and 2 above there is a limit on POWER. The instantaneous sum of 1+2 cannot exceed 120 kW (0.12 MJ/s)

Frank_ wrote:

gruntguru wrote: Exactly.

in reference to a previous post of yours about "sucking the pistons" GG, can that idea be used to get around the 120kw limit ?
so that you get the basic hp from the ICE, + the 120kw from the K motor, + extra hp from the crankshaft from reducing pumping losses with the electric turbo mode, but ALSO extra hp by creating a negative pressure in the exhaust manifold,
ie, suck the pistons up the cylinder during the exhaust stroke by overdriving the electric turbo (air motor assistance)

Unfortunately no. A radial inflow turbine does not act as a pump when overdriven. In fact the faster it goes - the higher the backpressure.

gruntguru wrote:

ringo wrote:I think some people are wasting their time trying to explain why that MGUK shaft power is limited to 120 kW. Save your energy my friends.

The reason the MGUH to the MGUK is umlimited is to account for the efficiency of the MGUK.

If my MGUK is 50% efficieint it would require 240 kW from MGUH, but it's ouput would still be at the limit of 120 kW.

This is the reason for stating unlimited. There is no loop hole for the MGUK to output 120kW.

It is simpler than that. "Unlimited" means no limit on the ENERGY per lap.

1. From ES to MGUK there is a limit of 4 MJ/lap.
2. From MGUH to MGUK there is no energy limit.

In both 1 and 2 above there is a limit on POWER. The instantaneous sum of 1+2 cannot exceed 120 kW (0.12 MJ/s)

Just to be complete:

3. From MGUH to/from ES there is no energy limit.