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Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 10:19
by hemichromis
wuzak wrote:gruntguru wrote:wuzak wrote:Grunt, it appears that Honda did have that very issue. As did Ferrari in 2014.
Wuzak could you expand on that? I find it impossible to believe that two engine teams both overlooked the need to run the PU as a pure TC (turbine -> MGUH -> MGUK -> transmission).
It was rumoured that Ferrari could not operate the MGUK directly from teh MGUK in 2014, that the recovered energy from the MGUH had to be routed through the ES.
The symptom of this method is that they would run out of energy at the end of straights, as happened to Ferrari in 2014 and Honda in 2015. It was a case of only being able to use 4MJ per lap, instead of, quite possibly, 6+ MJ that Mercedes and Renault could use.
Ferrari also increased the size of the turbine for the 2015 season and, maybe, also the compressor. Using the bigger turbine and adjusted control electronics to allow the direct linking of MGUH and MGUK has transformed the Ferrari performance. From what I recall, the only track at which they struggled with running out of ES allowance was Spa, but the loss wasn't the 160hp Honda were having, but probably less than half and for much less of the lap than Honda and Ferrari's 2014 PU.
If you had vision of the rain lights of the cars you could probably do an analysis of the ERS usage. The flashing light is said, by some, to mean the ES is being charged, but I believe it is fundamentally to show that the MGUK is no longer adding power to the ICE. In most cases it will be charging.
Most cars seem to have the flashing light in the last section of a straight, which probably means that the MGUH is feeding the ES at that point, rather than the MGUK.
It does make sense. Any evidence?
it seems like a problem that should have been solved within the season but then i am no engineer!
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 10:50
by max_speed
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 10:58
by Chicane
Possible theories based on the discussion so far
1] Internal heat dissipation issues which meant Honda had to dial down the rpm at which turbo was operating.
2] Vibration issues at high rpm which again meant Honda had to dial it down.
3] The turbine was too small to produce the boost needed for compressor to operate when under MGU-H harvesting
4] The compressor was too small.
5] Packaging issues limiting the true potential issues of the engine being translated on to the track from the dyno.
6] Faulty design of the compressor/turbine
7] Layout of the turbo which aided compact packaging but limited the optimum size of the compressor that was fit for the purpose.
Whether it is due to a single factor, a combination of the above factors or something else only Honda have an answer.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 12:15
by Facts Only
I think people need to appreciate that its very easy to know what to do in hindsight.
This picture for instance is really clear.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DDJ43WpUDWc/U ... iagram.jpg
But you have to think back to the early days. Everyone was designing the engines before the FIA had even worked out what sort of engine it should be, let alone the exact rules.
It started as an I4 with a 10k rpm limit and that had to be junked, then it was the V6 at 15k rpm and goalposts were being changed on a daily basis, that energy flow diagram didn't exist in that form back then, team leaders were reporting back from TWG meetings on things that had been changed, things they think will be changed and things that could possibly be changed. EVRYTHING was up in the air. Materials use rules coming and going, rules on injectors and pressures all over the place, space boxes moving about, clarification on homologation rumbling on and on. AND there weren't these clear pictures, just and endlessly updated written set of rules.
Then figure in Bernie talking his usual brand of confusing contradictions all the time in the media, those wasters at PURE sticking their beaks in and trying to change rules to suit their own ends (which we could all see were never going to happen) and VAG/Honda getting involved as well.
Its easy to say something is obvious, especially when you have 2 years of knowledge on what was the best solution.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 13:37
by hemichromis
My sources tell me that the new Honda engine will make 1500bhp but only last 1 race weekend......
j/k
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 13:44
by GoranF1
Another site reports problems whit reability on dyno.
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 12904.html
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 13:55
by ME4ME
It's from the same source: Auto Hebdo
But then again, there were even rumors about Ferrari having made a great step forward, but were still working on reliability. There is still time before Melbourne.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 13:56
by hemichromis
The source is again Auto Hebdo.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 14:02
by Joseki
The Schrodinger power unit.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 14:06
by Andres125sx
hemichromis wrote:
My sources tell me that the new Honda engine will make 1500bhp but only last 1 race weekend......
j/k
Great, that will be enough to win, even if they have to start all GPs from the bottom of the grid
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 14:07
by bauc
I don't care what web site it is, or what news portal, when I see text/report written and published without writer's name behind it I dismiss it right away.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 14:09
by Facts Only
Joseki wrote:The Schrodinger power unit.
It can be Reliable or Powerful or Both or Neither?
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 15:17
by godlameroso
The article only states that they'll need more than 4 power units, which is true, there's 21 races so they'll be using 5 for the season. That article is quite click-bait'ish.
I don't doubt Honda has had enough hindsight to fix their problems, and I seriously doubt they'll be as unreliable as last year. They certainly had enough engine iterations to get reliability under control. Quite frankly, I admire their courage, and their dedication, maybe I'm a bit biased towards Honda, but I genuinely feel their 2016 PU will be up there.
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 15:23
by GoranF1
According to a very respectful member and source on Honda forums @RolendaNSX,the new PU have been mated whit the chassis last week,and the latest news seem to be that 2016 spec PU will not hit track until 2nd Barcelona test.
http://vtec.net/forums/one-message?mess ... e_number=3&
EDIT; an older qoute from him;
There problem was never size zero. There problem was always the MGU-H and trying to turn the turbine/compressor at the max rpm allowed(it overheated and hurt combustion in the ICE).So expect a much larger turbine and about 20% larger compressor(will still be between the V)
Re: Honda Power Unit
Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 15:29
by Joseki
Facts Only wrote:Joseki wrote:The Schrodinger power unit.
It can be Reliable or Powerful or Both or Neither?
Until it moves on track yes.