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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 12 Dec 2018, 08:49
by Blackout
You can not say that the Viry guys arent doing their howmework*, the PU improves every year quite a lot power-wise** (except 2015 maybe)... but the problem is, Merc and Ferrari improve atleast as much
that's why the gap remains roughly the same.
So Viry must obviously up its game, buget-wise too, otherwise Honda will catch them for real
*they're improving the facilities too (new and better dynamic testbenches, new buildings for 2019 etc)
**same for the reliability this year, the packaging/integration etc.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2018, 16:03
by Genesis
Big Tea wrote: ↑08 Dec 2018, 14:09
It will also depend a huge amount how far Mercedes and Ferrari pull ahead during the winter. Renault can only aim at where they think the target will be, they could miss by quite a bit.
Yes they are moving targets but we might be close to seeing the limits of what can be developed with the current engine regulations and a ceiling can eventually hit where no more performance gains can realistically be made within the limits the current engine regulations have set.
Toto Wolff has already revealed that the development of the 2019 Mercedes engine isn't going "quite as expected" (source:
https://youtu.be/Q95f4iGqgiI?t=2238)
He mentions how some of the new concepts for the engine haven't really gone as planned and with a fantastic engine like they have I wonder how close they already are to reaching their ceiling. I could be wrong but I do not expect the engine to be massively improved over the winter (not like it needs improvement), and even though they will undoubtedly come to Melbourne with a stronger engine than they had in Abu Dhabi (as will Ferrari), in theory this means that the two manufacturers with engines that are currently quite a bit off Mercedes and Ferrari have much more room to work with before they hit their "ceiling"
I'd say it is more of a chance that Renault and Honda put a big dent in the performance deficit that they have to Mercedes and Ferrari over the winter.
The new architecture on the Renault engine will be quite a bit more powerful than Spec C this year. However peak power is one thing and then being able to deliver that power over the full race is another thing. I believe the Honda engine right now has a very good "peak power" (spec 3 Honda had a higher max BHP than Spec C Renault this year) but it cannot sustain high engine modes as much as the Mercedes and Ferrari engines. This could be due to a number of reasons which Honda obviously has to be working on. But they have a very good architecture and there is "no reason" why that engine can't ever be on Mercedes and Ferrari level.
Renault will be in the same boat now too with the new architecture. There could be some reliability problems to solve but Renault is obviously going to start 2019 with much more power than they currently have and we will all know exactly what the gap is to the top teams (and even Honda) is going to be when we get to Melbourne. However my opinion is that by the end of 2019 we should see all 4 engines come within a very similar maximum power output of each other.
Such is the law of diminishing returns.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 19 Dec 2018, 20:39
by Big Tea
Genesis wrote: ↑19 Dec 2018, 16:03
Big Tea wrote: ↑08 Dec 2018, 14:09
It will also depend a huge amount how far Mercedes and Ferrari pull ahead during the winter. Renault can only aim at where they think the target will be, they could miss by quite a bit.
Yes they are moving targets but we might be close to seeing the limits of what can be developed with the current engine regulations and a ceiling can eventually hit where no more performance gains can realistically be made within the limits the current engine regulations have set.
Toto Wolff has already revealed that the development of the 2019 Mercedes engine isn't going "quite as expected" (source:
https://youtu.be/Q95f4iGqgiI?t=2238)
He mentions how some of the new concepts for the engine haven't really gone as planned and with a fantastic engine like they have I wonder how close they already are to reaching their ceiling. I could be wrong but I do not expect the engine to be massively improved over the winter (not like it needs improvement), and even though they will undoubtedly come to Melbourne with a stronger engine than they had in Abu Dhabi (as will Ferrari), in theory this means that the two manufacturers with engines that are currently quite a bit off Mercedes and Ferrari have much more room to work with before they hit their "ceiling"
I'd say it is more of a chance that Renault and Honda put a big dent in the performance deficit that they have to Mercedes and Ferrari over the winter.
The new architecture on the Renault engine will be quite a bit more powerful than Spec C this year. However peak power is one thing and then being able to deliver that power over the full race is another thing. I believe the Honda engine right now has a very good "peak power" (spec 3 Honda had a higher max BHP than Spec C Renault this year) but it cannot sustain high engine modes as much as the Mercedes and Ferrari engines. This could be due to a number of reasons which Honda obviously has to be working on. But they have a very good architecture and there is "no reason" why that engine can't ever be on Mercedes and Ferrari level.
Renault will be in the same boat now too with the new architecture. There could be some reliability problems to solve but Renault is obviously going to start 2019 with much more power than they currently have and we will all know exactly what the gap is to the top teams (and even Honda) is going to be when we get to Melbourne. However my opinion is that by the end of 2019 we should see all 4 engines come within a very similar maximum power output of each other.
Such is the law of diminishing returns.
It is as you say, but also hand in hand with reliability. If the 0.01% 'allowance' gets taken up it is then effectively hitting the blade, so no warning, just bang
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 22 Dec 2018, 05:05
by carisi2k
I hope the Renault engine is good in 2019 because Daniel is going to need it. Hopefully this new design will actually bring the touted improvements Cyril keeps banging on about instead of vapourware like previous years. Renault has done well when it only supplied 2 teams in the past and maybe without Red Bull sticking there nose in they might be able to improve in many places. Hopefully Daniel did the right thing and the 2019 Renault is able to race with the big boys in 2019 but I'm thinking that it might only move Renault further away from the mid pack.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 26 Dec 2018, 18:30
by PlatinumZealot
Daniel made his own bed. Sad part is, I think Hulk is faster than Verstappen going by how he handled Sainz.
Anywho, Cyril claims that they will be pumping more resources into PU development even if it means sacrficing chassis a little bit. I sort of read it as "we will strike a parts sharing deal with McLaren, and we will focus 80% resource on engine and we put 20% to collaborate with McLaren the chassis" crazy, but maybe it would make sense.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 26 Dec 2018, 21:56
by gandharva
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 18:30
Anywho, Cyril claims that they will be pumping more resources into PU development even if it means sacrficing chassis a little bit.
When did he say this? All I read is that Renault is not ramping up investment and instead is simply hoping that FIA/LM introduce cost caps asap.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 01:33
by PlatinumZealot
This interview:
"There is no reason why should not close the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari over the winter with the engine. It will take a little longer with the chassis," Abiteboul added.
He said the biggest weakness was the chassis. If one reads between the lines He knows that the budget regulatuons will be coming but despite this the engine development cost is pretty much unaffected by this. Mercedes RedBull and Ferrari when hit buy the new restrictions will be affected by car spending evening the playing field a bit but the engine war will continue on. So strategically, and realistically pushing harder on the engine side puts them in a battle the stand a better chance of competing for 2021.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 04:27
by carisi2k
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 18:30
Daniel made his own bed. Sad part is, I think Hulk is faster than Verstappen going by how he handled Sainz.
Anywho, Cyril claims that they will be pumping more resources into PU development even if it means sacrficing chassis a little bit. I sort of read it as "we will strike a parts sharing deal with McLaren, and we will focus 80% resource on engine and we put 20% to collaborate with McLaren the chassis" crazy, but maybe it would make sense.
I don't think sainz is any where near as fast as Max and it was hulks second year at Renault and so he had an advantage in that regard. Daniel at Monaco was special and to be honest that is when I think Daniel made his mind up to leave RB.
I only hope Renault can improve their engine and I think that only dealing with 2 teams could help in that regard.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 14:30
by dren
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 14:47
by f1rules
I hope that is true, in my opinion mclaren and renault joining forces is their best bet, meaning sharing some chassis developments paths and knowledge, they are both below top teams and they will not be top teams without ressource restrictions so sharing development could be a solution. So basicly the two design teams create a basis together, and they develop together from there
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑26 Dec 2018, 18:30
Daniel made his own bed. Sad part is, I think Hulk is faster than Verstappen going by how he handled Sainz.
Anywho, Cyril claims that they will be pumping more resources into PUi development even if it means sacrficing chassis a little bit. I sort of read it as "we will strike a parts sharing deal with McLaren, and we will focus 80% resource on engine and we put 20% to collaborate with McLaren the chassis" crazy, but maybe it would make sense.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 16:43
by PlatinumZealot
Nice..
The exhaust ports are quite small.
Wastegates are relieving the turbine housing. Not really ideal for keeping flows steady near to the wheel.
A big cooling trunk is needed for the turbine cartridge or is that one of the compressor outlets? (yeah crazy if this thing has two)
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 28 Dec 2018, 03:55
by carisi2k
Is there a similar picture of the Renault engine in a Renault with the new kers?
I just noticed there was one of a Mclaren on the Honda power unit page beside the one of the red bull. Amazing how what is supposed to be a similar engine can look so different in packaging.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 28 Dec 2018, 06:01
by GhostF1
I still can't get over the size of the MGU-K on the Renault. The unit is enormous.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 28 Dec 2018, 14:18
by gandharva
GhostF1 wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 06:01
I still can't get over the size of the MGU-K on the Renault. The unit is enormous.
It's still the old K. Introduced in 2014. Renault failed to update it for several years, and when it was finally done in 2018, RBR and McLaren both refused to use it.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 28 Dec 2018, 15:13
by Juzh
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑27 Dec 2018, 01:33
This interview:
"There is no reason why should not close the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari over the winter with the engine. It will take a little longer with the chassis," Abiteboul added.
Literally been said year after year since 2014. Until it actually happens you can't believe a single word from this guy.
