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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 29 Dec 2018, 11:09
by gruntguru
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑27 Dec 2018, 16:43
The exhaust ports are quite small.
I can't see them?
I would expect exh port (and exh valve) size to be similar to an NA engine or slightly larger. Exhaust ports would not taper as much and so have a small CSA at the header flange to match smaller diameter header pipes. This is to maintain velocity and pulse energy and to reduce heat losses.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 29 Dec 2018, 15:23
by PlatinumZealot
Covered by the blanking plates above the fuel rail. Just look small to me.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 29 Dec 2018, 19:49
by saviour stivala
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑27 Dec 2018, 16:43
Nice..
The exhaust ports are quite small.
Wastegates are relieving the turbine housing. Not really ideal for keeping flows steady near to the wheel.
A big cooling trunk is needed for the turbine cartridge or is that one of the compressor outlets? (yeah crazy if this thing has two)
Wastegates does not relieve the turbine, they bypass it.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 29 Dec 2018, 23:55
by PlatinumZealot
saviour stivala wrote: ↑29 Dec 2018, 19:49
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑27 Dec 2018, 16:43
Nice..
The exhaust ports are quite small.
Wastegates are relieving the turbine housing. Not really ideal for keeping flows steady near to the wheel.
A big cooling trunk is needed for the turbine cartridge or is that one of the compressor outlets? (yeah crazy if this thing has two)
Wastegates does not relieve the turbine, they bypass it.
Huh.. Lol... I won't bother take the bait here.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 03:36
by trinidefender
saviour stivala wrote: ↑29 Dec 2018, 19:49
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑27 Dec 2018, 16:43
Nice..
The exhaust ports are quite small.
Wastegates are relieving the turbine housing. Not really ideal for keeping flows steady near to the wheel.
A big cooling trunk is needed for the turbine cartridge or is that one of the compressor outlets? (yeah crazy if this thing has two)
Wastegates does not relieve the turbine, they bypass it.
I'll take the bait.
When PZ said "relieve the turbine housing," he means that that the wastegates are relieving the exhaust gas pressure at the turbine housing (which bypasses the turbine wheel) instead of at some other point on the exhaust tract.
There is a misunderstanding on your part as to what he means. What you said (bypassing the turning) doesn't contradict what he said, he was simply stating where the wastegates are located.
By the way you type it appears that English isn't your first language so it's understandable however from what I've seen, this isn't the first time you have tried to contradict something someone said when actually you are in agreement with them. This causes conflict where there is none.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 08:37
by saviour stivala
While admittedly English is not my first language I was not trying to contradict anybody while being in agreement. Not at all. And neither was I intending to bait anybody. The forced induction/turbocharging system and its control systems used in the F1 hybrid power unit is different from the normal turbocharging systems or an electric turbocharging systems used for other application. This is because the MGU-H functions as both an electric motor to spool-up as well as to slow-down the turbo, as well as a generator of electricity. Technically speaking the use of the MGU-H function in controlling the turbo eliminated the need to use a waste-gate, but at the design stage of the system the advantage of “free-loading” and running the compressor in “electric supercharging mode” system was decided upon by all 4 manufacturers. Because of the “free loading” system the F1 turbocharger does not use an ‘internal’ (build-in) waste-gate that relieves the exhaust gases pressure inside the turbine housing, but an external waste-gate that by-passes the exhaust gases and pressure from the turbine housing. On the compressor side a BOV is used to safeguard the system against sudden throttle lift-off’. Having said all that, in short while a build-in waste-gate is designed to relieve pressure on the turbine wheel while still the exhaust gases are rotating the turbine wheel, the design of the external waste-gate as used in F1 is to completely by-pass exhaust gases from the turbine wheel (free-loading).
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 23:27
by ringo
saviour stivala wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 08:37
While admittedly English is not my first language I was not trying to contradict anybody while being in agreement. Not at all. And neither was I intending to bait anybody. The forced induction/turbocharging system and its control systems used in the F1 hybrid power unit is different from the normal turbocharging systems or an electric turbocharging systems used for other application. This is because the MGU-H functions as both an electric motor to spool-up as well as to slow-down the turbo, as well as a generator of electricity. Technically speaking the use of the MGU-H function in controlling the turbo eliminated the need to use a waste-gate, but at the design stage of the system the advantage of “free-loading” and running the compressor in “electric supercharging mode” system was decided upon by all 4 manufacturers. Because of the “free loading” system the F1 turbocharger does not use an ‘internal’ (build-in) waste-gate that relieves the exhaust gases pressure inside the turbine housing, but an external waste-gate that by-passes the exhaust gases and pressure from the turbine housing. On the compressor side a BOV is used to safeguard the system against sudden throttle lift-off’. Having said all that, in short while a build-in waste-gate is designed to relieve pressure on the turbine wheel while still the exhaust gases are rotating the turbine wheel, the design of the external waste-gate as used in F1 is to completely by-pass exhaust gases from the turbine wheel (free-loading).
It cannot function as a waste gate. I think ive explained this more than 4 years ago before the start of the tubro era.
The MGUH can load the turbine and take away from the shaft power going to the compressor, but it does not relieve turbine housing pressure; or instantly impact the flow or pressure characteristics through the turbine in the way that a bypass valve can. So the wastegate is still a critical part of engine control despite having the MGUH.
MGUH is a shaft load. Waste gate is pressure and mass control valve; not a load. Two different things and functions.
2019 Engine +50 HP but Turbo cannot handle it
Posted: 31 Dec 2018, 11:57
by Espresso
The 2019 single-seater will be the first to be built on the full potential of the renewed Enstone factory, for which a more competitive chassis should be born. Worries occupy the turbo bearings, because the V6 would have 50 more horsepower!
....
Renault is dragging on a problem that has been the same for years: it is not a design flaw, but the materials that the other Builders have brilliantly solved over time....
This article is shining a small light on one of the weak spot, use of materials.
Motorsport (italian with google translate)
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 01 Jan 2019, 11:29
by saviour stivala
If one bothered to have kept track of the numbers in HP gained pushed out by one and all during the season development attributed to some power units, said power unite would by now be nearer to producing 1200hp.
The last few races of the season in my opinion gave a distorted picture of the real situation as to the four power units real output in qualifying and race trim, especially that of the Renault engine in the back of the red bull. This was as a result of red bull having accumulated fresh power unit components for the last few races, which means they were racing both FERRARI and Mercedes who were using all power unit components at the very end of their racing life. I am convinced that if FERRARI and Mercedes were using as fresh power unit elements as red bull were the situation would have been even worse than in earlier races for Renault in the back of the red bull.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 10:11
by saviour stivala
ringo wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 23:27
saviour stivala wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 08:37
While admittedly English is not my first language I was not trying to contradict anybody while being in agreement. Not at all. And neither was I intending to bait anybody. The forced induction/turbocharging system and its control systems used in the F1 hybrid power unit is different from the normal turbocharging systems or an electric turbocharging systems used for other application. This is because the MGU-H functions as both an electric motor to spool-up as well as to slow-down the turbo, as well as a generator of electricity. Technically speaking the use of the MGU-H function in controlling the turbo eliminated the need to use a waste-gate, but at the design stage of the system the advantage of “free-loading” and running the compressor in “electric supercharging mode” system was decided upon by all 4 manufacturers. Because of the “free loading” system the F1 turbocharger does not use an ‘internal’ (build-in) waste-gate that relieves the exhaust gases pressure inside the turbine housing, but an external waste-gate that by-passes the exhaust gases and pressure from the turbine housing. On the compressor side a BOV is used to safeguard the system against sudden throttle lift-off’. Having said all that, in short while a build-in waste-gate is designed to relieve pressure on the turbine wheel while still the exhaust gases are rotating the turbine wheel, the design of the external waste-gate as used in F1 is to completely by-pass exhaust gases from the turbine wheel (free-loading).
It cannot function as a waste gate. I think ive explained this more than 4 years ago before the start of the tubro era.
The MGUH can load the turbine and take away from the shaft power going to the compressor, but it does not relieve turbine housing pressure; or instantly impact the flow or pressure characteristics through the turbine in the way that a bypass valve can. So the wastegate is still a critical part of engine control despite having the MGUH.
MGUH is a shaft load. Waste gate is pressure and mass control valve; not a load. Two different things and functions.
The MGU H controls the turbo, it spools-it up, it slows-it down, it harvests energy, it operates the compressor in electric supercharging mode free of any exhaust gases back pressure. It was the only power unit component out of the six which was never used before in F1 racing.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 02 Jan 2019, 20:45
by Brake Horse Power
Aren't those waste gate pipes a little small to relieve all the pressure?
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 04:54
by gruntguru
saviour stivala wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 08:37
The forced induction/turbocharging system and its control systems used in the F1 hybrid power unit is different from the normal turbocharging systems or an electric turbocharging systems used for other application. . . . . Because of the “free loading” system the F1 turbocharger does not use an ‘internal’ (build-in) waste-gate that relieves the exhaust gases pressure inside the turbine housing, but an external waste-gate that by-passes the exhaust gases and pressure from the turbine housing. . . . . . in short while a build-in waste-gate is designed to relieve pressure on the turbine wheel while still the exhaust gases are rotating the turbine wheel, the design of the external waste-gate as used in F1 is to completely by-pass exhaust gases from the turbine wheel (free-loading).
There is no technical difference between an internal and external wastegate. The location of the venting port in the exhaust manifold moves to the turbine housing but is still in the high pressure plumbing prior to the turbine wheel.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 10:10
by saviour stivala
gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 04:54
saviour stivala wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 08:37
The forced induction/turbocharging system and its control systems used in the F1 hybrid power unit is different from the normal turbocharging systems or an electric turbocharging systems used for other application. . . . . Because of the “free loading” system the F1 turbocharger does not use an ‘internal’ (build-in) waste-gate that relieves the exhaust gases pressure inside the turbine housing, but an external waste-gate that by-passes the exhaust gases and pressure from the turbine housing. . . . . . in short while a build-in waste-gate is designed to relieve pressure on the turbine wheel while still the exhaust gases are rotating the turbine wheel, the design of the external waste-gate as used in F1 is to completely by-pass exhaust gases from the turbine wheel (free-loading).
There is no technical difference between an internal and external wastegate. The location of the venting port in the exhaust manifold moves to the turbine housing but is still in the high pressure plumbing prior to the turbine wheel.
There must be quite some technical differences that gives a justified technical advantage for a formula one engine designer to opt for an external waste-gate system that initials the extra hardware (external waste-gate, external bypassing exhaust pipes all the way to the rear of the car with all the added weight and space taking-up. Formula one component designers goes to extreme lengths to save weight and space.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 16:27
by godlameroso
saviour stivala wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 10:10
gruntguru wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 04:54
saviour stivala wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 08:37
The forced induction/turbocharging system and its control systems used in the F1 hybrid power unit is different from the normal turbocharging systems or an electric turbocharging systems used for other application. . . . . Because of the “free loading” system the F1 turbocharger does not use an ‘internal’ (build-in) waste-gate that relieves the exhaust gases pressure inside the turbine housing, but an external waste-gate that by-passes the exhaust gases and pressure from the turbine housing. . . . . . in short while a build-in waste-gate is designed to relieve pressure on the turbine wheel while still the exhaust gases are rotating the turbine wheel, the design of the external waste-gate as used in F1 is to completely by-pass exhaust gases from the turbine wheel (free-loading).
There is no technical difference between an internal and external wastegate. The location of the venting port in the exhaust manifold moves to the turbine housing but is still in the high pressure plumbing prior to the turbine wheel.
There must be quite some technical differences that gives a justified technical advantage for a formula one engine designer to opt for an external waste-gate system that initials the extra hardware (external waste-gate, external bypassing exhaust pipes all the way to the rear of the car with all the added weight and space taking-up. Formula one component designers goes to extreme lengths to save weight and space.
Internal gates suck for boost control, everyone that wants better boost response goes external gate and boost controller.
Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 03 Jan 2019, 23:33
by 63l8qrrfy6
The rules specifically require a separate wastegate outlet for vroom vroom noises.
I guess that rules out internal wastegates where the bypass discharges at the turbine outlet.
godlameroso wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 16:27
Internal gates suck for boost control, everyone that wants better boost response goes external gate and boost controller.
