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Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 12:50

I got word that Mercedes have been developing a new intake concept for the last year which will be ready for the start of 2021 and is expected to bring a good step in performance.

The new architecture will be visibly different and the engine cover will have to be compromised slightly to accommodate it but the aero loss is said to be small compared to the power gained.

Well this has piqued my interest.

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 12:50

I got word that Mercedes have been developing a new intake concept for the last year which will be ready for the start of 2021 and is expected to bring a good step in performance.

The new architecture will be visibly different and the engine cover will have to be compromised slightly to accommodate it but the aero loss is said to be small compared to the power gained.

These guys are relentless!

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 12:50

I got word that Mercedes have been developing a new intake concept for the last year which will be ready for the start of 2021 and is expected to bring a good step in performance.

The new architecture will be visibly different and the engine cover will have to be compromised slightly to accommodate it but the aero loss is said to be small compared to the power gained.

Ominous. You certainly can't accuse them of resting on their laurels.

Another tidbit I forgot to bring up is that the boost pressures have increased this year to the point that Racing Point suffered failures of their CFRP compressor outlet pipe earlier in the season. It is understood Williams and Mercedes were already running metallic outlet pipes.

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 12:50

I got word that Mercedes have been developing a new intake concept for the last year which will be ready for the start of 2021 and is expected to bring a good step in performance.

The new architecture will be visibly different and the engine cover will have to be compromised slightly to accommodate it but the aero loss is said to be small compared to the power gained.

OK, wild guess : some evo of the twin compressor as used on the Porsche 919
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8360.jpg

Are we only talking about the intake manifold or the whole air intake path?

MtthsMlw wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 16:15

Are we only talking about the intake manifold or the whole air intake path?

I don't know, the bloke who's volunteered this information is an engineer working for one of the customer teams.
HPP gives them simplified external engine geometry that they use to develop packaging within the chassis. He's mentioned that the plenums and everything around them PU wise are very different and will require aero changes to fit.

factory_p wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 16:03

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 12:50

I got word that Mercedes have been developing a new intake concept for the last year which will be ready for the start of 2021 and is expected to bring a good step in performance.

The new architecture will be visibly different and the engine cover will have to be compromised slightly to accommodate it but the aero loss is said to be small compared to the power gained.

OK, wild guess : some evo of the twin compressor as used on the Porsche 919
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8360.jpg

How does this work? Two smaller compressors that are able to spool quicker? Are they allowed multiple compressors or is it stated in the rules it needs to be one? Surely if it was more than one they would already be running a twin prop design with large and small.

Wow, Toto wasn’t kidding when he said the goal for ‘21 would be to run their ‘20 quali mode as the race map.

factory_p wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 16:03

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 12:50

I got word that Mercedes have been developing a new intake concept for the last year which will be ready for the start of 2021 and is expected to bring a good step in performance.

The new architecture will be visibly different and the engine cover will have to be compromised slightly to accommodate it but the aero loss is said to be small compared to the power gained.

OK, wild guess : some evo of the twin compressor as used on the Porsche 919
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8360.jpg

Cool picture but I design turbochargers, the compressor on that turbo is very simple and conventional. That is not bad since it should perform very well, most of the time when the compressors look odd it is because we had to compromise for packaging reasons. The sensor in the compressor is a Hermes7 speed sensor, I can’t tell what the sensor cable with the high temp sleeve is for. The 2 outboard inlets are both for the turbine, I can’t see enough of the turbine to determine it is a dual volute or a twin scroll design.

Garrett did release a dual compressor turbo back in 2010 for the Ford 6.7L Scorpion engine, but it was a huge failure. It performed poorly compared to the nearly identical turbo used by Chevy on the 6.6L Duramax, except using a conventional compressor. Quite quickly the dual compressor was ditched for a conventional single compressor.

MHR650 wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 22:05

factory_p wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 16:03

OK, wild guess : some evo of the twin compressor as used on the Porsche 919
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8360.jpg

Cool picture but I design turbochargers, the compressor on that turbo is very simple and conventional. That is not bad since it should perform very well, most of the time when the compressors look odd it is because we had to compromise for packaging reasons. The sensor in the compressor is a Hermes7 speed sensor, I can’t tell what the sensor cable with the high temp sleeve is for. The 2 outboard inlets are both for the turbine, I can’t see enough of the turbine to determine it is a dual volute or a twin scroll design.

Garrett did release a dual compressor turbo back in 2010 for the Ford 6.7L Scorpion engine, but it was a huge failure. It performed poorly compared to the nearly identical turbo used by Chevy on the 6.6L Duramax, except using a conventional compressor. Quite quickly the dual compressor was ditched for a conventional single compressor.

I believe it is a dual compressor designed on this picture and the shield you see is actually between the second compressor inlet and the turbine side (which would make sense to insulate the air intake as good as possible).

See in this picture of the assembled engine : https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8398.jpg

You can clearly see the compressor as shown before and further behind it the exhaust manifolds connect to an assembly containing the by-pass valve between the turbocharger's turbine and the ERS turbine. But clearly, the exhaust manifolds don't connect to any of the pipes seen in the first picture.

I believe the idea behind the use of this unusual dual compressor in the 919 was partly to reduce the diameter of the compressor in order to fit neatly under the engine cover since it sits so high on top of the engine.

factory_p wrote: ↑

07 Oct 2020, 16:49

MHR650 wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 22:05

factory_p wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 16:03

OK, wild guess : some evo of the twin compressor as used on the Porsche 919
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8360.jpg

Cool picture but I design turbochargers, the compressor on that turbo is very simple and conventional. That is not bad since it should perform very well, most of the time when the compressors look odd it is because we had to compromise for packaging reasons. The sensor in the compressor is a Hermes7 speed sensor, I can’t tell what the sensor cable with the high temp sleeve is for. The 2 outboard inlets are both for the turbine, I can’t see enough of the turbine to determine it is a dual volute or a twin scroll design.

Garrett did release a dual compressor turbo back in 2010 for the Ford 6.7L Scorpion engine, but it was a huge failure. It performed poorly compared to the nearly identical turbo used by Chevy on the 6.6L Duramax, except using a conventional compressor. Quite quickly the dual compressor was ditched for a conventional single compressor.

I believe it is a dual compressor designed on this picture and the shield you see is actually between the second compressor inlet and the turbine side (which would make sense to insulate the air intake as good as possible).

See in this picture of the assembled engine : https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8398.jpg

You can clearly see the compressor as shown before and further behind it the exhaust manifolds connect to an assembly containing the by-pass valve between the turbocharger's turbine and the ERS turbine. But clearly, the exhaust manifolds don't connect to any of the pipes seen in the first picture.

I believe the idea behind the use of this unusual dual compressor in the 919 was partly to reduce the diameter of the compressor in order to fit neatly under the engine cover since it sits so high on top of the engine.

Interesting, seeing that picture I change my opinion and I agree that is a dual compressor design. To be clear I was not involved in the design of the 919 turbo and haven’t really investigated the engine design. It looks like the turbine is a simple monoscroll which would make sense for a hybrid race car, although gasoline VTG is a possibility, we are seeing more and more requests for that.

It would be interesting to see if they use a single back to back compressor wheel like they did on Scorpion. It is clear that a smaller compressor will help with aerodynamics, but when you reduce the diameter of the compressor you must increase the RPM to maintain a reasonable tip speed. That is the downside of the back to back compressor wheel, the extra mass makes it hard to spin it as fast as you would like. A clue that they are concerned with turbo speed is that they are racing with a speed sensor, a lot of times you will use one for development and remove it for production. On the other hand, on a hybrid race car the turbo probably operates over a pretty narrow speed range, the thing that killed the Scorpion was lack of altitude margin. When you got up on a mountain pass in Colorado you couldn’t spin the turbo any higher and had to derate.

factory_p wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 16:03

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 12:50

I got word that Mercedes have been developing a new intake concept for the last year which will be ready for the start of 2021 and is expected to bring a good step in performance.

The new architecture will be visibly different and the engine cover will have to be compromised slightly to accommodate it but the aero loss is said to be small compared to the power gained.

OK, wild guess : some evo of the twin compressor as used on the Porsche 919
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/2 ... 4a8360.jpg

Ooh. That's what it was. I couldn't wrap my head around it when the first photos emerged.

At first i thought it was for cooling.

In F1 they run cooling near the turbocharger cartige.. I know its water cooled.. But i think external cooling helps too. Then again they wouldn't use two pipes for that for sure.. So yea.. If it is a double sided compressor that is really cool.

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 15:17

Another tidbit I forgot to bring up is that the boost pressures have increased this year to the point that Racing Point suffered failures of their CFRP compressor outlet pipe earlier in the season. It is understood Williams and Mercedes were already running metallic outlet pipes.

At a coupler or pipe itself? So around 5.5 bar absolute?

godlameroso wrote: ↑

07 Oct 2020, 22:19

Mudflap wrote: ↑

06 Oct 2020, 15:17

Another tidbit I forgot to bring up is that the boost pressures have increased this year to the point that Racing Point suffered failures of their CFRP compressor outlet pipe earlier in the season. It is understood Williams and Mercedes were already running metallic outlet pipes.

At a coupler or pipe itself? So around 5.5 bar absolute?

Dunno, how did you come up with that number ?