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I find it interesting that the compressor (and intake plenum) are wrapped in a big carbon casing in this mock up...
Do you think it's useful (in a real 2015 f1 PU) to wrap the compressor, atleast, like that in order to isolate it from the turbine's heat? can that shield isolate the C completely/good anough from the T?

No significant benefit IMHO. Convective heat transfer from turbine to compressor is insignificant..

So you agree with Cold Fussion
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=7110

Cold Fussion wrote:The vast majority of the heat addition to the air stream is from the compression and not from the radiation of the engine block and other hot components. Look at how a heat exchanger is constructed and compare that to a 'normal' turbo installation and you'll quickly see that it is a poor heat exchanger.

I'm reading a lot assumption that Honda had excess to the Mercedes PU through McLaren. But do you think that Mercedes would McLaren take a race engine back to Woking? Does any Mercedes powered team get to keep the engines after the race weekend? I can imagine they got a test engine for pre-season test to build the chassis around it. But why would Williams FI and McLaren need a working engine at their base? A mock power-unit would be enough wouldn't. I think Mercedes isn't daft enough to let McLaren take the real deal to Woking knowing that they will be running Honda powerunits next year. Does someone knows for sure that McLaren were allowed to keep the engines after race weekends? Of course McLaren has data from the race weekends, but during the race weekends that can't brake the seals. So at what moment McLaren could have dissected PU106A Hybrid at Woking? I assume Mercedes ships their engines to the race weekends and delivers them to the teams at the beginning of the race weekend. When the cars are stripped after the race I assume the teams (or only McLaren) have to pack the engines and hand them over to Mercedes.

kooleracer wrote:I'm reading a lot assumption that Honda had excess to the Mercedes PU through McLaren. But do you think that Mercedes would McLaren take a race engine back to Woking? Does any Mercedes powered team get to keep the engines after the race weekend? I can imagine they got a test engine for pre-season test to build the chassis around it. But why would Williams FI and McLaren need a working engine at their base? A mock power-unit would be enough wouldn't. I think Mercedes isn't daft enough to let McLaren take the real deal to Woking knowing that they will be running Honda powerunits next year. Does someone knows for sure that McLaren were allowed to keep the engines after race weekends? Of course McLaren has data from the race weekends, but during the race weekends that can't brake the seals. So at what moment McLaren could have dissected PU106A Hybrid at Woking? I assume Mercedes ships their engines to the race weekends and delivers them to the teams at the beginning of the race weekend. When the cars are stripped after the race I assume the teams (or only McLaren) have to pack the engines and hand them over to Mercedes.

No one is saying that McLaren took the engine to Woking, indeed Mercedes brings the engines from track to track where it is then fitted into the Customer Teams Chassis (Be it McLaren or Williams).

What McLaren can do, if they wanted to, is to run the engine in very specific ways during Friday testing to get specific Telemetry data. They can also run different Engine Maps to see how the Engine reacts. They know how the engine delivers power throughout its rev range. You can get a lot of information from by running the engine and analyzing the data from SECU. They also know how the the MGU-K on the Merc engine works.

What everyone on the forum are saying (I think) is that the data gathered by McLaren will be fed to Honda for their PU. This would be completely legal, as the SECU data is proprietary Data of McLaren and result of their testing on the Manufacturer Engine. Not manufacturer Data supplied by Mercedes to McLaren..

But the Mercedes PU must plug-in into Mclaren ECU.So Mclaren(Honda)will know alot about it(more than Ferrari/Renault).

They can learn from the data, but isn't the hardware of bigger importance. Of course having run the Mercedes PU they know the important power figures. But without the right hardware isn't it all fairly useless. The setup of the engines is known throughout the whole paddock Mercedes even released the picture of it some weeks ago. So when people talk about learning from Mercedes? They mean collecting data and not copying the engine hardware? Just to be clear.

kooleracer wrote:They can learn from the data, but isn't the hardware of bigger importance. Of course having run the Mercedes PU they know the important power figures. But without the right hardware isn't it all fairly useless. The setup of the engines is known throughout the whole paddock Mercedes even released the picture of it some weeks ago. So when people talk about learning from Mercedes? They mean collecting data and not copying the engine hardware? Just to be clear.

Engine hardware be developed by Honda.. By learning from Merc Data, McLaren and Honda can set the parameters of the engine and use that as a base and work backwards from there. then they can look at whats the best possible hardware/software combo to get the same results.

Granted that Merc PU strengths became more and more apparent as the season went on, but I think it would take less time to develop hardware when all your performance parameters are clear. C&D (Copy and Develop) is generally faster than R&D.

akshat21 wrote:

kooleracer wrote:They can learn from the data, but isn't the hardware of bigger importance. Of course having run the Mercedes PU they know the important power figures. But without the right hardware isn't it all fairly useless. The setup of the engines is known throughout the whole paddock Mercedes even released the picture of it some weeks ago. So when people talk about learning from Mercedes? They mean collecting data and not copying the engine hardware? Just to be clear.

Engine hardware be developed by Honda.. By learning from Merc Data, McLaren and Honda can set the parameters of the engine and use that as a base and work backwards from there. then they can look at whats the best possible hardware/software combo to get the same results.

Granted that Merc PU strengths became more and more apparent as the season went on, but I think it would take less time to develop hardware when all your performance parameters are clear. C&D (Copy and Develop) is generally faster than R&D.

Oke so the advantage Honda has is that they can check the numbers they got from the dyno against the Mercedes PU. So they are using the Mercedes data they got from McLaren as a baseline more or less?

Do you guys have an idea of how many people work on Honda V6 turbo in japan and in milton Keynes ?

akshat21 wrote:

kooleracer wrote:I'm reading a lot assumption that Honda had excess to the Mercedes PU through McLaren. But do you think that Mercedes would McLaren take a race engine back to Woking? Does any Mercedes powered team get to keep the engines after the race weekend? I can imagine they got a test engine for pre-season test to build the chassis around it. But why would Williams FI and McLaren need a working engine at their base? A mock power-unit would be enough wouldn't. I think Mercedes isn't daft enough to let McLaren take the real deal to Woking knowing that they will be running Honda powerunits next year. Does someone knows for sure that McLaren were allowed to keep the engines after race weekends? Of course McLaren has data from the race weekends, but during the race weekends that can't brake the seals. So at what moment McLaren could have dissected PU106A Hybrid at Woking? I assume Mercedes ships their engines to the race weekends and delivers them to the teams at the beginning of the race weekend. When the cars are stripped after the race I assume the teams (or only McLaren) have to pack the engines and hand them over to Mercedes.

No one is saying that McLaren took the engine to Woking, indeed Mercedes brings the engines from track to track where it is then fitted into the Customer Teams Chassis (Be it McLaren or Williams).

What McLaren can do, if they wanted to, is to run the engine in very specific ways during Friday testing to get specific Telemetry data. They can also run different Engine Maps to see how the Engine reacts. They know how the engine delivers power throughout its rev range. You can get a lot of information from by running the engine and analyzing the data from SECU. They also know how the the MGU-K on the Merc engine works.

What everyone on the forum are saying (I think) is that the data gathered by McLaren will be fed to Honda for their PU. This would be completely legal, as the SECU data is proprietary Data of McLaren and result of their testing on the Manufacturer Engine. Not manufacturer Data supplied by Mercedes to McLaren..

McLaren would not have been able to run differnt maps as they wish to study the engine, every bit of running is controlled and monitored by Mercedes HPP trackside team and they have been particularly strict with Mclaren. Also the maps come from HPP anyway, Mclaren don't have have there own engine maps.

The data would be more valuable than a look inside the engine. Knowing the temperature, pressures end energy flow at each point in the thermodynamic cycle tells you everything. Sizing of hardware components can be determined from there.

gruntguru wrote:The data would be more valuable than a look inside the engine. Knowing the temperature, pressures end energy flow at each point in the thermodynamic cycle tells you everything. Sizing of hardware components can be determined from there.

Also would help with the strategy Mercedes uses with ERS.

Facts Only wrote:

akshat21 wrote:

kooleracer wrote:I'm reading a lot assumption that Honda had excess to the Mercedes PU through McLaren. But do you think that Mercedes would McLaren take a race engine back to Woking? Does any Mercedes powered team get to keep the engines after the race weekend? I can imagine they got a test engine for pre-season test to build the chassis around it. But why would Williams FI and McLaren need a working engine at their base? A mock power-unit would be enough wouldn't. I think Mercedes isn't daft enough to let McLaren take the real deal to Woking knowing that they will be running Honda powerunits next year. Does someone knows for sure that McLaren were allowed to keep the engines after race weekends? Of course McLaren has data from the race weekends, but during the race weekends that can't brake the seals. So at what moment McLaren could have dissected PU106A Hybrid at Woking? I assume Mercedes ships their engines to the race weekends and delivers them to the teams at the beginning of the race weekend. When the cars are stripped after the race I assume the teams (or only McLaren) have to pack the engines and hand them over to Mercedes.

No one is saying that McLaren took the engine to Woking, indeed Mercedes brings the engines from track to track where it is then fitted into the Customer Teams Chassis (Be it McLaren or Williams).

What McLaren can do, if they wanted to, is to run the engine in very specific ways during Friday testing to get specific Telemetry data. They can also run different Engine Maps to see how the Engine reacts. They know how the engine delivers power throughout its rev range. You can get a lot of information from by running the engine and analyzing the data from SECU. They also know how the the MGU-K on the Merc engine works.

What everyone on the forum are saying (I think) is that the data gathered by McLaren will be fed to Honda for their PU. This would be completely legal, as the SECU data is proprietary Data of McLaren and result of their testing on the Manufacturer Engine. Not manufacturer Data supplied by Mercedes to McLaren..

McLaren would not have been able to run differnt maps as they wish to study the engine, every bit of running is controlled and monitored by Mercedes HPP trackside team and they have been particularly strict with Mclaren. Also the maps come from HPP anyway, Mclaren don't have have there own engine maps.

That wouldnt make sense.

If Mercedes HPP provided the maps to customer teams, what would be the guarantee of fair play.

Suppose if Mercedes were not that dominant during the season and were in a tight battle with Williams or McLaren. Would merc then provide them with with the best possible engine maps?? Knowing doing so would all but guarantee Williams the wcc and the top prize money???

Merc can suggest PU parameters. But the actual engine maps would be left to the teams to figure out.

Summary of tweets by Petr Hlawiczka, F1 journalist:

Everything on the F1 power unit will be made in new factory at Sakura City in Japan - all design work & testing. Facility in Milton Keynes is small - just some dynos & offices to track support. Just document work + checking over broken PUs. Arai: "No one seems to be interested in our power unit, I don't have any kind of offers at the moment." Open to 2nd team in 2016.