F1technical.net

Dr. Acula wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 11:56

LM10 wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 10:02

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 09:54

Fuel development is probably the biggest oversight of the 1.6T engine regulations. Absolutely 0 road relevance and essentially moves the focus away from the engineering expertise in the teams to that in the supplier. No different than a tire war.

How can you say that there is 0 road relevance in fuel development?

Well, do we have roadcars which need more than 98RON to run at all at the moment? No we haven't. Many cars actually use knock sensors and they will retard the ignition timing to prevent knock if you use lower grade fuel. Also you don't automatically generate more power by just using a more knock resistent fuel. The engine needs to be designed/setup with such fuel in mind.
Also in some countries it's still hard to find petrol with more than 95RON. But as a manufacturer you have to deliver cars to such countries either.
You will not see 105RON or even higher fuel on normal fuel stations any time soon because there's no point in using it in normal cars.

alexx_88 wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 10:41

I was similarly excited by the MGU-H, thinking it will be added to hybrids in a bid to further improve efficiency. As far as I know, the CLS AMG is one of the only reasonably-priced cars that features the technology, with little indication that more will follow. And that's more than 6 years after they've started working on it.

Was pretty clear to me from the beginning that the MGU-H the way it's used in F1 will never transition into roadcars.
An electrically supported Turbocharger, yes that will work.
But the idea to use the turbocharger as a generator under full load in a road car has an inherent problem. You hardly ever drive a road car under wot for extended periods of time.

AFAIK isn't 102ROn fuel sold in Japan? I do remember in the 90's those crazy Japs and there High Revving NA engines hitting 9K liked the local 102RON. Europe tends to be 95RON, you can pay to get 99RON in some countries.

flexcon wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 12:46

AFAIK isn't 102ROn fuel sold in Japan? I do remember in the 90's those crazy Japs and there High Revving NA engines hitting 9K liked the local 102RON. Europe tends to be 95RON, you can pay to get 99RON in some countries.

In Germany we've got Aral Ultimate 102RON and Shell V-Power 100RON.

Do not know if it works, but redex (and others) sells

Redex Octane Booster

HONRDX19RRP
Maximises Performance
Increases Octane Number By Up To 1.5
Cleans Injectors

At a tenner a tank for 1.5 though...

Just brainstorming a bit...

From what I gather, there seems to be a feeling that Ferrari can pull out vastly more performance on a lap per lap basis, but only for a very limited amount of time. AMuS did an analysis of Spa in 2017 and 2018 where they conclude that even if you factor in that 2017 Mercedes was probably running less wing and in 2018 more, there was something magical about how that Ferrari continued to pull/accelerate even after he got out of the tow. The end speed was similar, but the Ferrari got there much quicker. Some also report that there is a screeching sound that can be heard on very few instances, possibly when Ferrari deploys what ever they have at full tilt.

- Mercedes feels that this advantage can not be attributed to aero, as if that were the case, the benefit would be felt on a more consistent basis and not a momentary boost. It perhaps also wouldn't explain that weird sound.

- there is only so much that you can store and use (legally) from the battery system. Assuming both Mercedes and Ferrari have a fairly good idea on where and how to deploy that energy at its best, I can't see how it could be in that area either. Not by the amount of performance boost Ferrari can get out.

- fuel... well, if it's within the fuel, they should be able to deploy it more often and not for the same duration at all times. At least assuming they have just the one fuel they are using and not a separate tank with "special" fuel. (which would be illegal anyway).

What about if Ferrari somehow store air pressure that they can deploy? Would there be some benefit if the quantity of pressurized air would be large enough, dense enough and could be somehow deployed to increase boost on some level? I presume what's at odds with this, is that at the end, you are still going to be limited by the amount of fuel flow you can use. Could pressurized air be somehow be used differently? Just throwing this one out there...

Fuel is improved all the time and of course, is not only a matter of adding some booster to get the RON higher.

Where I work, we mix raw material to make everything for an oil company.

Just have a look at this: https://xenum.com/en/home/products/addi ... e-booster/

Octane Booster
Octane Booster is a self-mixing combination of agents formulated according to state-of-the-art additives and fuel technology. Improves fuel combustion & general performance of petrol engines.

Properties:

Increases the octane number by 2 to 5 points depending on the RON of the gasoline
Increased power and dynamics of the engine
No harmful effects on catalytic converters or the environment
Reduces and prevents pinging of the engine
Avoids mechanical damage caused by pinging
Reduces head build up under high engine load
Can be used in leaded or unleaded petrol
Economical and easy to use (1:1000)
Self-mixing

Just by using more or less of a raw material (or a different raw material) could improve the results they want. It's only a time-consuming process.

In case you want to listen to that noise again. Here it's very clear.
Everyone said it's just the wastegates opening but now there's a report of AMuS asking a Merc engineer if that could be the case and he denied it, saying it is some other kind of valve somewhere in/around the TC.

It's apparent at the beginning of the acceleration and ends somewhere in the middle.

The noise reminds me a bit like the sports-exhaust on road-cars when at a certain rev-range, a flap opens and completely by-passes the exhaust-manifold...

Big Tea wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 13:29

Do not know if it works, but redex (and others) sells

Redex Octane Booster

HONRDX19RRP
Maximises Performance
Increases Octane Number By Up To 1.5
Cleans Injectors

At a tenner a tank for 1.5 though...

Got to be careful with a lot of these are they don't increase by an octane, but a point of an octane. I think there are 10 in an octane or something.

So they say "improves by 2" but they actually mean 0.2 octane. Something like that anyway.

Ok, I am a lurker, but I have been thinking of this and reading this thread for a while. The post about compressed air, by Phil, has me REALLY thinking now. The post right below by MtthsMlw with the Ferrari sound for sure sounds like compressed air blow off to me.
Combine those with the known method of MGU-H overrun with the wastegates open or partial open to power the -K directly and/or -K + ICE and and/or ES and you could conceivably run same boost and fuel as regular mode but gain full use of -K.
Inject pressurized air stream into the turbine housing and drive the overrun of -H while harvesting to harvest more and quicker but also when needed to drive harder/faster during qualy or race situations.
Not really sure, but I think the concept has legs. Compressed air canisters are available in a variety or pressures and light weight materials.
I am not looking to defend this as a thesis, but I wanted to contribute if i could. Hopefully this makes something click for you guys that are all significantly smarter that I am and much better with the regs. Thanks for the indulgence.

Here is a link to a video of a similar POC:
https://youtu.be/iTgcHp582rE

I am amazed by the voltage and amperage he gets out of this so easily.

I'm no engineer, just loving learning and reading the debate going on here.

As a theory of suggestion, could Ferrari have concentrated with Shell to create a fuel blend that offers more "waste" coming out of the exhaust in turn offering more electrical recharge through the MGUH with the end result being when Ferrari are at full tilt regenerating, instead of losing 30hp, they loose say, 15hp? So when Ferrari are in this mode they have more end power. Or in another use case, the fuel is concentrate on generating higher exhaust heat and gases that means the Ferrari can recover faster per portion than the Merc?

Phil wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 13:46

The noise reminds me a bit like the sports-exhaust on road-cars when at a certain rev-range, a flap opens and completely by-passes the exhaust-manifold...

On the 062 a flap opens and "it - the exhaust" by-passes the turbine exhaust housing.

Fuels must use a restricted a combination of chemicals found in street/commercial gasoline. This has been the case for over a decade. How many new untested combinations can be still available. It would seem a good computer model would make quick work of this.

I believe the max octane number is set by the rules.

Brian

Octane numbers are not mandated by the rules.

hardingfv32 wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 18:26

Fuels must use a restricted a combination of chemicals found in street/commercial gasoline. This has been the case for over a decade. How many new untested combinations can be still available. It would seem a good computer model would make quick work of this.

I believe the max octane number is set by the rules.

Brian

Lower octane is set.

MtthsMlw wrote: ↑

30 Aug 2018, 13:41

In case you want to listen to that noise again. Here it's very clear.
Everyone said it's just the wastegates opening but now there's a report of AMuS asking a Merc engineer if that could be the case and he denied it, saying it is some other kind of valve somewhere in/around the TC.
https://streamable.com/9h3fq
It's apparent at the beginning of the acceleration and ends somewhere in the middle.

first i thought it was a audio artifact....but that is really obvious now
it comes up so abruptly.