F1technical.net

Therefore the wing is legal

EDIT- I meant the attachment I really should start double checking what I type!!

scarbs wrote:(this is a technical forum, can anti team rants be done elsewhere or be moderated..?)

I was answering on direct question (what about pro team rants?).


BTW, here is what I found in FIA regs today...

FIA wrote:1.5 Wheel :
Flange and rim.

3.15 Aerodynamic influence :
With the exception of the cover described in Article 6.5.2 (when used in the pit lane) and the ducts
described in Article 11.4, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance :
- Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.
- Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any
degree of freedom).
- Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.

Since Ferrari claims that ring is part of the braking system (duct) than it is not part of wheel and since it has aerodynamical infuence than it colides with "
- Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not having any
degree of freedom).
- Must remain immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car"

Another thing, according to definition of wheel and duct, duct can reach to inner side of wheel flange and rim and what follows from there outwards is wheel so ring attched to wheel can't be part of the braking system and duct.

FIA wrote:11.4 Air ducts :
Air ducts around the front and rear brakes will be considered part of the braking system and shall not
protrude beyond :
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm above the horizontal centre line of the
wheel ;
- a plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm below the horizontal centre line of the
wheel ;
- a vertical plane parallel to the inner face of the wheel rim and displaced from it by 120mm toward the
centre line of the car.
Furthermore, when viewed from the side the ducts must not protrude forwards beyond the periphery of the
tyre or backwards beyond the wheel rim.
All measurements will be made with the wheel held in a vertical position.

Check how huge mistake formula1.com made!

According to their illustartion Ferrari's "duct" is illegal for another reason...

Look at the top pic - even if I'd agree that ring is duct, according to formula1.com it "protrudes forwards beyond the periphery of the tyre or backwards beyond the wheel rim." Which ofcourse isn't true. My pic below Paolo Filisetti's shows how it really looks (I wonder why is Bernie paying that guy at all )

Paolo Filisetti


manchild

So what exactly says it cannot be considered a brake duct - and what exactly says its illegal as a brake duct?

I see nothing.

kilcoo316 wrote:So what exactly says it cannot be considered a brake duct - and what exactly says its illegal as a brake duct?

I see nothing.

Wheel = "FIA 1.5 Wheel : Flange and rim"

Wheel must be made of metal...

So what is piece made of CF doing there. Where flange begins duct ends. You can't have duct beyond flange, that is just stupid. Also, if duct infront of flange is static and carbon ring is rotating than how can it be called duct or part of the duct?

If it is not part of the wheel as Ferrari claims than it is element influencing aerodyinamics and that is illegal because it is movable aero element. Bottom line - it is has multiple illegality.

It's true that with all regulations, this can be considered both legal as illegal. However, the FIA have noted that there is no real problem with it, so it is in fact legal and all teams are allowed to use it.

It does not mean that I would consider it legal if I were an FIA supervisor, as I stand by manchild with his metallic view. At the end of the day I am not, and finding an answer to whether the FIA is more lenient on Ferrari is actually a totally different thread.

EDIT: correct for the illustrations manchild! Stupid formula1.com is wrong again

If it was that big a deal, other teams would be complaining full throat about it, just as they did with the front wing issue. Instead, I haven't read anything to that effect.

Annoyingly Manchild seems to have a good point, but why haven't other teams complained about this brake duct / carbon rim attachment because I haven't really heard a lot about teams argueing about it's legality?

Manchild, I think your hatred of Ferrari and their lead driver has got in the way of your judgement too much. I can see that the rules state that, as we understand it, this item is completly illegal, but if this, and the wings, have any real advantage why don't other teams use them?

You watched Imola like the rest of us. Ferraris best circuit and for half the race the blue car was all over it like a fly on sh*t. If it were such an advantage how come the Renault is that much better. I mean, one lap even Sato was quicker than Michael.

I do agree that the Maranello boys (and whatever transgender sex Michael is inclined furthest too) have been on the wrong side of the rules a lot and not been punished (in some cases) but if these developments are that good why isn't everyone using them? The FIA are not so obviuslly hipocritical as to grab other teams for copying their pet, are they?

Tom wrote:Manchild, I think your hatred of Ferrari and their lead driver has got in the way of your judgement too much. I can see that the rules state that, as we understand it, this item is completly illegal, but if this, and the wings, have any real advantage why don't other teams use them??... I do agree that the Maranello boys (and whatever transgender sex Michael is inclined furthest too) have been on the wrong side of the rules a lot and not been punished (in some cases) but if these developments are that good why isn't everyone using them? The FIA are not so obviuslly hipocritical as to grab other teams for copying their pet, are they?

Because other teams know that rims are illegal and they don't have SCHUgardaddy at the top of the FIA. They'd be punished for things Ferrari goes unpunished with... that happened so many times before.

Tom wrote:You watched Imola like the rest of us. Ferraris best circuit and for half the race the blue car was all over it like a fly on sh*t. If it were such an advantage how come the Renault is that much better. I mean, one lap even Sato was quicker than Michael.

Indeed, I agree but it is a matter of principle I'm defending regardless of temporary imapct of illegality. If you don't cut weed when it starts growing you'll have huge job later... We had such situation in 1997 and mild penalty resulted in 2000-2005 "dominance".

Tp wrote:Annoyingly Manchild seems to have a good point, but why haven't other teams complained about this brake duct / carbon rim attachment because I haven't really heard a lot about teams argueing about it's legality?

This appeared on official formula 1 site today

Since its introduction in Bahrain, the protruding outer lip (in red) on Ferrari's wheel rims has been the subject of much discussion, with rivals questioning whether it constitutes an illegal moveable aerodynamic device - the movement being the wheel's rotation. Ferrari say the lip is a functional part of the air intake system for brake cooling and that its profile remains the same, regardless of whether the wheel is moving - hence it is not effectively 'moveable'. Ferrari's brake cooling system has two main parts - an inner drum (in yellow) where cool air (blue arrows) enters, and an outer part where heat from the brakes (red arrows) is expelled.

I feel what you're saying Manchild, I do.

But the ring doesn't move in relation to the object that it's attached, which is I think what the regulation implies cannot occur. Also it could just as easily be part of the wheel, without really changing its weight, if Ferrari changed their wheel specs with BBS. For those two reasons, I think the FIA has chosen to let it go.

bhallg2k wrote:I feel what you're saying Manchild, I do.

But the ring doesn't move in relation to the object that it's attached, which is I think what the regulation implies cannot occur. Also it could just as easily be part of the wheel, without really changing its weight, if Ferrari changed their wheel specs with BBS. For those two reasons, I think the FIA has chosen to let it go.

Ok, ok but wheels must be made of metal only (that was quoted several times from FIA regs). I agree that such shape made as one part together with rest of the wheel would be 100% legal.


Bottom line... I'm F1 fan and I'd like to see all teams competing under equal conditions with no one being favored. So, my current dislike for Ferrari is not because of it's name, logo or anything else but because of current Ferrari politics inspired by Luca, Ross, Todt and Schuey. I really don't understand why can't it be like in the old days. This "modern" interfeerence of politics into F1 ruins everyones fun because it affects everyone regardless on favourite team or driver.

If I hate contemporary Ferrari with no reason why would I than adore their road cars and F1 driver's from pre-Schuey era?

Since its introduction in Bahrain, the protruding outer lip (in red) on Ferrari's wheel rims has been the subject of much discussion, with rivals questioning whether it constitutes an illegal moveable aerodynamic device - the movement being the wheel's rotation. Ferrari say the lip is a functional part of the air intake system for brake cooling and that its profile remains the same, regardless of whether the wheel is moving - hence it is not effectively 'moveable'. Ferrari's brake cooling system has two main parts - an inner drum (in yellow) where cool air (blue arrows) enters, and an outer part where heat from the brakes (red arrows) is expelled.

http://www.formula1.com/race/technical_ ... 4/267.html

manchild wrote:Bottom line... I'm F1 fan and I'd like to see all teams competing under equal conditions with no one being favored. So, my current dislike for Ferrari is not because of it's name, logo or anything else but because of current Ferrari politics inspired by Luca, Ross, Todt and Schuey. I really don't understand why can't it be like in the old days. This "modern" interfeerence of politics into F1 ruins everyones fun because it affects everyone regardless on favourite team or driver.

Yeah I totally understand what you're saying Manchild, the only reason I'm sticking up for Ferrari is because I've always supported them and always will!

That formula1.com image also ignores the sidewall bulge of the tyre which is wider than that of the rim.

manchild wrote:Ok, ok but wheels must be made of metal only (that was quoted several times from FIA regs). I agree that such shape made as one part together with rest of the wheel would be 100% legal.

The reasoning is that part attached to the wheel is not "wheel" but a part of the "brake duct". Therefore, the brake duct is divided in two parts: the internal "conventional" one and an external, made of carbon fibre, therefore of the same material as the rest of the duct.

manchild wrote:This "modern" interfeerence of politics into F1 ruins everyones fun because it affects everyone regardless on favourite team or driver.

Funny you call it "modern", I thought Enzo Ferrari was the first guy mixing racing and politics and in the most effective way. That's also a trace of italian personality, the like for backstage and political interference in almost everything...