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The bargeboards and the attached items were always the principle floor sealing devices anyway. The front wing just helped by moving tyre wake away from the edge of the floor which made the bargeboards' job easier. The bargeboards are going to have to do more lateral work to move the tyre wake - which is, I'm sure, why the rules have reduced the height of the bargeboards. Reducing the height reduces the amount of air they can move laterally. Moving them forwards helps a little to offset the loss which is why it's odd that they have done that.

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑

18 Jan 2019, 17:26

The bargeboards and the attached items were always the principle floor sealing devices anyway. The front wing just helped by moving tyre wake away from the edge of the floor which made the bargeboards' job easier. The bargeboards are going to have to do more lateral work to move the tyre wake - which is, I'm sure, why the rules have reduced the height of the bargeboards. Reducing the height reduces the amount of air they can move laterally. Moving them forwards helps a little to offset the loss which is why it's odd that they have done that.

I may be wrong but I think the reduction in height of the bargeboards was to improve the legibility of sponsors artwork in that area. In the past Sponsorship was also the driving force behind the engine cover shape and rear wing end plate plainness.

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑

18 Jan 2019, 17:26

The bargeboards and the attached items were always the principle floor sealing devices anyway. The front wing just helped by moving tyre wake away from the edge of the floor which made the bargeboards' job easier. The bargeboards are going to have to do more lateral work to move the tyre wake - which is, I'm sure, why the rules have reduced the height of the bargeboards. Reducing the height reduces the amount of air they can move laterally. Moving them forwards helps a little to offset the loss which is why it's odd that they have done that.

The bargeboard height was actually reduced at the behest of team principals to improve the sponsorship visibility on the side of the chassis. It's the same reason the engine covers and rear wing endplates are such massive sails and that front and rear wings will never disappear from F1 - even if it were proved they were the reason for the terrible wheel-to-wheel action. (EDIT: ^^ Got there before me )

I wouldn't say the bargeboards 'seal' the floor as such, they induce outwash to push the front tyre wake outboard and downwash to increase the effective angle of the floor (bigger peak pressures at the front edge). The underfloor sealing as it were is more from the sidepod undercut and floor scrolls (obviously everything is interconnected and the outwash from the bargeboards helps both reduce pressure under the floor and increase outwash in the undercut), which are designed to prevent flow being sucked back under the floor (it's not sealing in the sense of a side skirt).

jjn9128 wrote: ↑

18 Jan 2019, 18:49

I wouldn't say the bargeboards 'seal' the floor as such, they induce outwash to push the front tyre wake outboard and downwash to increase the effective angle of the floor (bigger peak pressures at the front edge). The underfloor sealing as it were is more from the sidepod undercut and floor scrolls (obviously everything is interconnected and the outwash from the bargeboards helps both reduce pressure under the floor and increase outwash in the undercut), which are designed to prevent flow being sucked back under the floor (it's not sealing in the sense of a side skirt).

The bargeboards (and the nose turning vanes etc) do create vortices which are directed around the leading edge of the floor/sidepod undercut, and enhanced by devices in that same area it seems to me. Whilst that helps generally move air outboard, I think the interaction of the vortices and the floor slots help to reduce flow migration around the floor's edge aka "sealing the floor". The Y250 vortex will play a part in this too, no doubt.

As we've both said, the various bits all work together for the whole.

Somewhere in this forum was a fancy picture of a CFD analysis of a 2007 Renault which showed strong vortices forming at the bottom of the barge boards. Now that barge boards became wider it could be that those vortices are far enough from the centre line to actually help sealing the floor.

Edit: here it is


If you can move these vortices to the edge of the floor they could help a lot in sealing the floor

McMrocks wrote: ↑

19 Jan 2019, 11:08

Somewhere in this forum was a fancy picture of a CFD analysis of a 2007 Renault which showed strong vortices forming at the bottom of the barge boards. Now that barge boards became wider it could be that those vortices are far enough from the centre line to actually help sealing the floor.

Edit: here it is
http://oi58.tinypic.com/10nexhl.jpg

If you can move these vortices to the edge of the floor they could help a lot in sealing the floor

Why not just make the bargeboard vortices stronger by creating as much downforce as possible with them, use the T-tray extension to induce helicity and preserve the vortex coming off the underside of bargeboard, and then use the strakes on the raised leading edge of the floor to channel that low pressure air to the back of the car as shown in this CFD image. Then you'd have a low pressure section starting from behind the neutral section, guided by the nose and Y250 vortex which is resistant to the turbulent air coming off the front tires and suspension arms. I wonder if double decker barge boards are allowed by the regulations.

Ferrari will have a very good chance to find and exploit a loophole. Because the close cooperation with Alfa Romeo Sauber and Haas. They have triple of the manpower working on the loopholes, because I'm sure they will share any technical information, especially with Simon Resta at Sauber.

pantherxxx wrote: ↑

20 Jan 2019, 01:21

Ferrari will have a very good chance to find and exploit a loophole. Because the close cooperation with Alfa Romeo Sauber and Haas. They have triple of the manpower working on the loopholes, because I'm sure they will share any technical information, especially with Simon Resta at Sauber.

don't think it runs that way
1. Ferrari has way better manpower in Marinello
2. Ferrari has a way bigger budget
3. Sauber only buys the engines, they are not an official junior driver team of Ferrari, so i guess it is still all for themselves.

with point 3 i am not really sure but i guess these counts surely for Haas

Capharol wrote: ↑

20 Jan 2019, 02:26

pantherxxx wrote: ↑

20 Jan 2019, 01:21

Ferrari will have a very good chance to find and exploit a loophole. Because the close cooperation with Alfa Romeo Sauber and Haas. They have triple of the manpower working on the loopholes, because I'm sure they will share any technical information, especially with Simon Resta at Sauber.

don't think it runs that way
1. Ferrari has way better manpower in Marinello
2. Ferrari has a way bigger budget
3. Sauber only buys the engines, they are not an official junior driver team of Ferrari, so i guess it is still all for themselves.

with point 3 i am not really sure but i guess these counts surely for Haas

You're quite right, collusion between teams is forbidden - how this works when teams can purchase the non-listed parts from competitors becomes a little muddy though. When teams buy a gearbox the mounts for suspension are included - which in turn defines the geometry, wheelbase, etc.

Haas use the Ferrari wind tunnel, which is where some of their competitors (from memory Force India and Toro Rosso were most vocal) complained about crossover of data but those claims were unproven. There were a number of Ferrari aerodynamicists who joined Haas as well which is where maybe that first Haas car had some similarities to the previous Ferrari - again engineers cross teams all the time.

godlameroso wrote: ↑

19 Jan 2019, 23:10

Why not just make the bargeboard vortices stronger by creating as much downforce as possible with them, use the T-tray extension to induce helicity and preserve the vortex coming off the underside of bargeboard, and then use the strakes on the raised leading edge of the floor to channel that low pressure air to the back of the car as shown in this CFD image. Then you'd have a low pressure section starting from behind the neutral section, guided by the nose and Y250 vortex which is resistant to the turbulent air coming off the front tires and suspension arms. I wonder if double decker barge boards are allowed by the regulations.

You don't really want a massive vortex going under the floor - it works to a point but it increases boundary layer thickness which along with the total pressure loss in the core reduces diffuser performance.

Creating downforce from the bargeboards creates upwash which will also detract from performance at the leading edge of the floor and reduce the effectiveness of the sidepod undercut. There are some bits creating downforce, but generally they're aimed outwards.

Depending what you mean by double decker bargeboards I think they would be legal, provided everything is shadowed by the footplate.

It looks like more outwash and downwash with the barge boards and the y250 rotating down on them as it moves aft.

jjn9128 wrote: ↑

20 Jan 2019, 14:14

You're quite right, collusion between teams is forbidden - how this works when teams can purchase the non-listed parts from competitors becomes a little muddy though. When teams buy a gearbox the mounts for suspension are included - which in turn defines the geometry, wheelbase, etc.

Defines the rear suspension geometry, but the front can still be different since sauber makes their own chassis. Therefore, wheelbase can be different

cramr wrote: ↑

23 Jan 2019, 09:09

jjn9128 wrote: ↑

20 Jan 2019, 14:14

You're quite right, collusion between teams is forbidden - how this works when teams can purchase the non-listed parts from competitors becomes a little muddy though. When teams buy a gearbox the mounts for suspension are included - which in turn defines the geometry, wheelbase, etc.

Defines the rear suspension geometry, but the front can still be different since sauber makes their own chassis. Therefore, wheelbase can be different

Drifting off topic but AFAIK Sauber don't use the non-listed Ferrari parts, they certainly did not in 2018. Haas do... and coincidentally have the same wheelbase as Ferrari. Force India might be a better example - as they use some Mercedes non-listed parts (to a lesser extent than Haas) and have a completely different philosophy on wheelbase and rake.

https://redbullracing.redbull.com/artic ... -tech-regs

"Barge Boards
The bargeboards either side of the cockpit are being moved and shrunk for 2019, in an effort to make them less effective and thus, less disruptive. The new regs make them 150mm smaller, and pushed forward 100mm"