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Scarbs, thanks for the photo.... you can see clearly quite a significant lateral offset so they are going to get a reducing front ride height with steer. I modelled this effect mathematically for a company a year and a half ago, and the results looked extremley interesting.

I would have thought the offset is a set up parameter for different tracks as it is easy to change for and aft offsets with shims and my model suggested some signficant load changes when compared with classical WT. The lateral offset is probably a function of vehicle speed and steer angle compared with the aero load and resulting spring compression, so the wing can be held at the optimum height above the ground...

Am i right in thinking ferrari were the first back in 2000ish to have this set up? Toyota were the first to have a very large lateral offset I think from my research - a year after ferrari initially mounted it to the upright.

Do Super Aguri run this at the moment?

Mr T,
I now know that one team runs 8mm of offset from the king pin axis for their pushrod. I would say that this is a set up parameter depending on the nature of the corners around the track.

MrT wrote:Scarbs, thanks for the photo.... you can see clearly quite a significant lateral offset so they are going to get a reducing front ride height with steer. I modelled this effect mathematically for a company a year and a half ago, and the results looked extremley interesting.

I would have thought the offset is a set up parameter for different tracks as it is easy to change for and aft offsets with shims and my model suggested some signficant load changes when compared with classical WT. The lateral offset is probably a function of vehicle speed and steer angle compared with the aero load and resulting spring compression, so the wing can be held at the optimum height above the ground...

Am i right in thinking ferrari were the first back in 2000ish to have this set up? Toyota were the first to have a very large lateral offset I think from my research - a year after ferrari initially mounted it to the upright.

Do Super Aguri run this at the moment?

It makes so much

sense to explore this, I'm surprised if the team's haven't tried to make a conscious use of that geometry much earlier. Short of making a model of any sort I pretty soon could accept the principle of how a rearward offset in the pushrod mount to the upright transfers load to the rear according to the steering angle and how the opposite happens with a forward mount ... it took a couple of napkin sketches, but I think I've got it. Of course, without doing any numbers it's not so easy to consider the amount of forces involved. What I'm not getting to grips with is how this will result in the front end being lowered overall through the corners?

Autosport, meanwhile had had a chat with Jenson prior to his taking over the driving duties at Jerez. If it's clear by looking at races that this year has been anything but a tour de force for Honda, it sounds even worse coming from a driver. At least he isn't sugar coating it.

"It's really just understanding a different way of working with aerodynamics. We're not expecting it to be any quicker. ... It might be more consistent and balance-wise it might be better, but you can't expect the team to turn the team around that quickly. ... This car is horrible to drive and I don't enjoy coming to the races at the moment. ... The problem for us now is that we're very slow in a straight line and when we get to a corner then we haven't got any downforce. So it can't be worse."

I've edited it a bit to keep it short, go here (link to autosport) to read the whole thing.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/09/ ... -at-jerez/

Well.... Thats about the ugliest adaption we will ever see methinks....

modbaraban wrote:

vyselegend wrote:I think in clear they didn't "evolve" a working concept (RA106), but rather choose to built a brand new package based on (not necessary tested) theories, even maybe "borrowed" ones... (Mac Laren obvious inspiration).

Can't see anything that looks like McLaren on this picture:

lol Yeh but I don't see anything Ferrari on the Mclaren, and look where that got them!

Bringing up Honda's issues again. At the belgium Grand Prix Rubens Barrichello was said to have added front wing to quell slight understeer and ended up with even more understeer.

Is this not a classic sign that air over the the front wing is stalling?

West wrote:Nicky Hayden's Honda motorcycle is ruining him this year.

I think Nicky Hayden is pretty much ruining Nicky Hayden.

Scuderia_Russ wrote:

West wrote:Nicky Hayden's Honda motorcycle is ruining him this year.

I think Nicky Hayden is pretty much ruining Nicky Hayden.

I guess since the thread title doesn't specify Honda's Formula 1 team, its up to the poster to decide what path to take in the discussion.......

Although N.Hayden didn't do too bad at Estoril, given his machinery and competition this season. Even Rossi isn't holding off the Ducati's stampede.

And oh yeah, Honda F1 needs better drivers too, besides getting their car "right".

mx_tifosi wrote:I guess since the thread title doesn't specify Honda's Formula 1 team, its up to the poster to decide what path to take in the discussion.......

Think again

modbaraban wrote:

mx_tifosi wrote:I guess since the thread title doesn't specify Honda's Formula 1 team, its up to the poster to decide what path to take in the discussion.......

Think again

Nice one!

mx_tifosi wrote: And oh yeah, Honda F1 needs better drivers too, besides getting their car "right".

Yeah, one is the sucessor of Jean Alesi and the other has no character, no opinion and no attitude to make change happen. And he is too old, too.

Keir wrote:Bringing up Honda's issues again. At the belgium Grand Prix Rubens Barrichello was said to have added front wing to quell slight understeer and ended up with even more understeer.

Is this not a classic sign that air over the the front wing is stalling?

Yeah see that's what I thought, but I've heard Rubens & JB both complain of this phenomenon earlier in the season. You'd think something as obvious as that would have been sorted by now wouldn't you? I can't help feeling there's more to it than that.

That said, could it be that something on the car behind the front wing is disrupting airflow in a manner which could cause this effect?

like they said earlier in the season it is not simply one or two elements of the car, ie front wing stalling or something, its several issues together, jb said if it was just the front wing it could have been solved before Aus.

Oh yeh there's no doubt that the problems the Honda car faces overall are more than purely one part of the car. I was reffering to this specific phenomenon whereby "You add front wing and the car understeers more" surely that phenomenon is purely an aerodynamic issue with regards (largely to, but not exclusive to) the front wing?

I mean, as far as I'm aware (but obviously i could very well be wrong) if you add front wing and the car looses front end grip, there is a clear problem with the way the front wing is either working, or interacting with other parts. It cannot possibly be due to say, the rear wing, or the suspension if this particular case point happenes when only you add front wing.

Again, I'm not trying to say that Honda's problem is the front wing, and the front wing alone. I mean that purely this specific area (+ FW = - front end DF), can only be due to an issue with the front wing, right?