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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 28 Feb 2021, 19:33
by Ringleheim
FW17 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2021, 16:01
Why do these proposed new tyres have such as high aspect ratio? I would have expected them to go real street style with them.
That fat sidewall you see on F1 tires is there as part of the suspension system of the car overall. The tire deforms a lot and allows the cars to be so low and so stiff.
A super short sidewall and stiff tire carcass would screw the whole thing up.
I'm not sure why they feel they need to mess with the tires anyway!
I guess they figure cool sports cars now have 20 and 21" wheels, so the old 13" wheel of F1 cars seems outdated or something.
Who cares?
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 28 Feb 2021, 20:04
by henry
jjn9128 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2021, 16:30
FW17 wrote: ↑28 Feb 2021, 16:01
Why do these proposed new tyres have such as high aspect ratio? I would have expected them to go real street style with them.
Because it's not ideal for racing. However the super high sidewall isn't either great for control over suspension either. So they compromised.
It’s possible that the lower sidewalks would improve racing since the cars would have less grip, particularly over kerbs. More opportunities for skill differentiation between drivers. They have a lot of control over the current tyres but the tools they use to do so are banned next year.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 00:48
by Scorpaguy
Looking at a future mars rover, I noticed a spiral spoked wheel/hub system that afforded both a bit of rim flex and suspension. As we "progress" towards larger diameter wheels, will the rules (and high speed physics) allow for these newer wheels to have some flex and replace some of the lost suspension action of the current tyre's large sidewalls?
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 01:56
by djos
Ringleheim wrote: ↑28 Feb 2021, 19:33
I'm not sure why they feel they need to mess with the tires anyway!
I guess they figure cool sports cars now have 20 and 21" wheels, so the old 13" wheel of F1 cars seems outdated or something.
Who cares?
It's not like F1 have never changed Tire sizes before ... it isn't some sort of holy grail! F1 should be using more modern and relevant tire sizes as the suspension should be doing most of the work to manage mechanical grip.
https://feelgoodcars.com/history-tyres-formula-1/
In recent years, the teams have been relying on increasingly complex tricks to get the most out of the huge sidewalls which are very difficult to control.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 11:31
by Holm86
djos wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 01:56
Ringleheim wrote: ↑28 Feb 2021, 19:33
I'm not sure why they feel they need to mess with the tires anyway!
I guess they figure cool sports cars now have 20 and 21" wheels, so the old 13" wheel of F1 cars seems outdated or something.
Who cares?
It's not like F1 have never changed Tire sizes before ... it isn't some sort of holy grail! F1 should be using more modern and relevant tire sizes as the suspension should be doing most of the work to manage mechanical grip.
https://feelgoodcars.com/history-tyres-formula-1/
In recent years, the teams have been relying on increasingly complex tricks to get the most out of the huge sidewalls which are very difficult to control.
The baloon tires are also a nightmare when it comes to aero, because they deform so much.
The teams have multiple times complained when Pirelli made an updated tire, because the aero behaviour didnt match what was calculated by the teams.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 12:16
by Jolle
I expect for designers the low profile tires are more predictable then the balloons they have now (they deform less, better models). Performance should be closer between the teams for that. But, with a stiffer tire, cars will probably have an even smaller performance window of grip. The movement in the balloons give you more of a safety margin before they “snap”.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 12:53
by jjn9128
Holm86 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 11:31
The baloon tires are also a nightmare when it comes to aero, because they deform so much.
The teams have multiple times complained when Pirelli made an updated tire, because the aero behaviour didnt match what was calculated by the teams.
This was the secondary reason for the change. To make it easier for smaller teams to accurately model the tyre sidewall - and make it easier/simpler to predict aero in that region. Primary was tyre suppliers wanted something more representative of their product. For morons who think their p-zero road tyre is in some way linked to the f1 tyre.
henry wrote: ↑28 Feb 2021, 20:04
It’s possible that the lower sidewalks would improve racing since the cars would have less grip, particularly over kerbs. More opportunities for skill differentiation between drivers. They have a lot of control over the current tyres but the tools they use to do so are banned next year.
I'd argue less grip is better for racing anyway. Where's the skill in going flat through copse/abbey/eau rouge/blanchiman? The skill shows in brake application and car/throttle control. The Grosjean interview in racefans today is interesting for this reason. He actually has to drive the car again.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 12:59
by JordanMugen
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
For morons who think their p-zero road tyre is in some way linked to the f1 tyre.
Is the P Zero Corsa really completely unrelated? No shared "kevlar flipper" reinforcements, no anything?
The P ZERO™ Corsa (PZC4) is a tyre that brings the best of motorsport technology both on the road and on tracks. Developed in association with leading vehicle manufacturers in the high performance sector, it is perfect in every road surface. The racing type compounds allow to achieve an extreme handling and best levels of braking and traction.
https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-au/car ... zero-corsa
Lies, damned lies?
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
To make it easier for smaller teams to accurately model the tyre sidewall - and make it easier/simpler to predict aero in that region.
So why not adopt 20" wheels with a 680mm tyre that best matches a Ferrari or McLaren road car?
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
Primary was tyre suppliers wanted something more representative of their product.
I don't understand why it is considered optimal for a Formula One car to have such small brakes?
It's considered optimal for a Ferarri F8 Tributo to have 16"/400mm brakes (with road car brake callipers typically requiring around 2" clearance), yet apparently it is optimal for a grand prix car to have 11"/280mm brakes (1" clearance for racing brake calipers).
Would not larger brake rotors with greater leverage and greater thermal capacity be superior!?
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 13:33
by Zynerji
JordanMugen wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:59
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
For morons who think their p-zero road tyre is in some way linked to the f1 tyre.
Is the P Zero Corsa really completely unrelated? No shared "kevlar flipper" reinforcements, no anything?
The P ZERO™ Corsa (PZC4) is a tyre that brings the best of motorsport technology both on the road and on tracks. Developed in association with leading vehicle manufacturers in the high performance sector, it is perfect in every road surface. The racing type compounds allow to achieve an extreme handling and best levels of braking and traction.
https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-au/car ... zero-corsa
Lies, damned lies?
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
To make it easier for smaller teams to accurately model the tyre sidewall - and make it easier/simpler to predict aero in that region.
So why not adopt 20" wheels with a 680mm tyre that best matches a Ferrari or McLaren road car?
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
Primary was tyre suppliers wanted something more representative of their product.
I don't understand why it is considered optimal for a Formula One car to have such small brakes?
It's considered optimal for a Ferarri F8 Tributo to have 16"/400mm brakes (with road car brake callipers typically requiring around 2" clearance), yet apparently it is optimal for a grand prix car to have 11"/280mm brakes (1" clearance for racing brake calipers).
Would not larger brake rotors with greater leverage and greater thermal capacity be superior!?
Why are you trying to make so much sense?
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 13:34
by dave kumar
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
I'd argue less grip is better for racing anyway. Where's the skill in going flat through copse/abbey/eau rouge/blanchiman? The skill shows in brake application and car/throttle control. The Grosjean interview in racefans today is interesting for this reason. He actually has to drive the car again.
For those that are interested here's the article being referred to
https://www.racefans.net/2021/03/01/fru ... car-to-f1/
Moving from F1 to IndyCar means swapping one single-specification tyre supplier for another: In this case, exchanging Pirellis for Firestones. While Grosjean had been critical of F1’s rubber in the past, he described himself as “very pleasantly surprised with the Firestones”. Unlike their F1 counterparts, these have to work straight out of the garage with no pre-heating, as tyre warmers are banned.
“They’ve been great,” said Grosjean. “No tyre blanket, going out of the pit. Okay, it’s a bit more slippery but there is grip, and you can actually push for a few laps and they stay quite consistent. I was doing good laps after 25, 26 laps on the tyres and that’s something that I couldn’t do in my previous experience.”
There's lots of good stuff in this interview so well worth a read
Grosjean admitted “I don’t regret all those hours in the gym” after he “discovered the joy of not having a power steering wheel” around the short, twisty and undulating Alabama course which will host next month’s season-opening race.
“It’s very physical,” he added. “It is tough driving those cars, very much in a different way than Formula 1. The only thing you fight in Formula 1 is the G-forces. Here you actually fight the heaviness of the car physically. But I don’t mind it, it’s quite cool.”
However the veteran of 179 F1 races was pleased by the different handling sensation in the less aerodynamically-sensitive IndyCar.
“If I’m being simplistic, Formula 1 only works as aerodynamics and the rest is just here to support the car,” he explained. “An IndyCar works really with the set-up. The aerodynamics is much simpler, there’s much less downforce. So high-speed corners are a bit more fruity in an IndyCar but the low-speed corners actually feel maybe better.”
Food for thought for F1. Would it be a good thing if we reduce downforce and the low speed stuff becomes more important for extracting a good laptime? F1 cars are currently just a platform for aero to paraphrase Grosjean. The subject for another thread though.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 13:42
by henry
JordanMugen wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:59
Would not larger brake rotors with greater leverage and greater thermal capacity be superior!?
Not necessarily if they have higher mass and rotational inertia. That’s another thing that’s “worse” about the 18” solution. The actual mass will be higher reducing performance in all planes, and the referred mass, from the rotational inertia, will reduce performance in acceleration and braking.
I think the people who will be most happy are the aerodynamicists since the lower tyre distortion will allow the suspension engineers to keep the platform more stable and, as mentioned by @djos, the lower distortion will affect the aero less.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 14:18
by JordanMugen
dave kumar wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 13:34
Food for thought for F1. Would it be a good thing if we reduce downforce and the low speed stuff becomes more important for extracting a good laptime? F1 cars are currently just a platform for aero to paraphrase Grosjean. The subject for another thread though.
Such an aero cut would very quickly make F1 slower than F2, just as Indycar are slower than GP2 (on road courses). I am not sure this would be desirable. It is thrilling to watch the immense speed of a Formula One car.
Juzh wrote: ↑26 Feb 2021, 20:12
Pwoah, as if in fast-forward.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 14:29
by JordanMugen
henry wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 13:42
Not necessarily if they have higher mass and rotational inertia. That’s another thing that’s “worse” about the 18” solution. The actual mass will be higher reducing performance in all planes, and the referred mass, from the rotational inertia, will reduce performance in acceleration and braking.
If 13" tyres offer superior performance, why don't LMP1 competitors choose to use 13" wheels? Do the regulations mandate the use of 18" tyres?
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 14:54
by Just_a_fan
JordanMugen wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:59
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
For morons who think their p-zero road tyre is in some way linked to the f1 tyre.
Is the P Zero Corsa really completely unrelated? No shared "kevlar flipper" reinforcements, no anything?
The P ZERO™ Corsa (PZC4) is a tyre that brings the best of motorsport technology both on the road and on tracks. Developed in association with leading vehicle manufacturers in the high performance sector, it is perfect in every road surface. The racing type compounds allow to achieve an extreme handling and best levels of braking and traction.
https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-au/car ... zero-corsa
Lies, damned lies?
It's standard marketing guff.
So why not adopt 20" wheels with a 680mm tyre that best matches a Ferrari or McLaren road car?
jjn9128 wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 12:53
Primary was tyre suppliers wanted something more representative of their product.
I don't understand why it is considered optimal for a Formula One car to have such small brakes?
It's considered optimal for a Ferarri F8 Tributo to have 16"/400mm brakes (with road car brake callipers typically requiring around 2" clearance), yet apparently it is optimal for a grand prix car to have 11"/280mm brakes (1" clearance for racing brake calipers).
Would not larger brake rotors with greater leverage and greater thermal capacity be superior!?
Are F1 cars currently under-braked? No. Do they therefore need bigger brakes? Again, no.
You absolutely can not compare an F1 car to a road car, no matter how extreme the road car may seem to be. Road cars have a whole host of additional regulatory and customer requirements / litigation risks etc., that a race car just doesn't have to worry about.
Let's get rid of front wings on F1 cars - after all, road cars don't have them. Road cars have silencers and emissions gear. Let's fit that to F1 cars too. My road car can traverse large obstacles but F1 cars can't drive on anything other than smooth tarmac - let's make F1 cars run a minimum of 100mm ground clearance. See, it's all silliness when trying to use road car requirements and fashions to compare with F1 cars.
Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.
Posted: 01 Mar 2021, 14:59
by Just_a_fan
JordanMugen wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 14:29
henry wrote: ↑01 Mar 2021, 13:42
Not necessarily if they have higher mass and rotational inertia. That’s another thing that’s “worse” about the 18” solution. The actual mass will be higher reducing performance in all planes, and the referred mass, from the rotational inertia, will reduce performance in acceleration and braking.
If 13" tyres offer superior performance, why don't LMP1 competitors choose to use 13" wheels? Do the regulations mandate the use of 18" tyres?
Tyres are provided by the nominated supplier. The tyre supplier doesn't want to make 13 inch tyres because they can't market them to boy/girl racers in their 2.0 litre hatchbacks.
