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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Dec 2021, 12:32
by mkay
Any grumblings on the 2022 Merc PUs?
Mercedes seems to have fallen significantly behind Honda in terms of ICE durability and ERS management this year.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Dec 2021, 14:49
by One and Only
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑11 Dec 2021, 01:55
rogazilla wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 16:45
dans79 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 16:28
The flow between the ES and the MGU-H is unlimited. Thus if the ICE can withstand the extra wear and heat degradation, it can be pushed harder by recovering from and deploying to the MGU-H more aggressively!
That part I get. It is the 'drive harder' part that makes no sense to me. Since the rev range doesn't change, the only difference would be increase compression? If the spec is locked, and I imagine the CR is already very high, how would you achieve that?
What's the consequences of higher CR? does it change the exhaust to that drives the turbo? If the ICE is more efficient then less heat to recover from MGU-H right? Less MGU-H then less flow between ES and MGU-H?
That's the part I am not understanding.
The energy to and from the energy store has gone past limit returns. You are literally limited by regulations.
The heat input into the MGUH is unlimited however.
If your ICE can operate in away to make the same power while pumping more air, you will have way more energy to the MGUH. Alternatively if you can squeeze more energy from the fuel into the air you can extract more mechanical power to the pitsons and loose less to the cylinder walls.
This is very achieveable if detonation, and also lean flame stability can be controls because you see these engines are still detonation limited and are on the limit of running lean. New fuel formumations, new injections strategies,
new piston and liner materials and shapes.. Lower friction parts.. Etc. All of these give more ICE power and /or you can run the engine harder for longer. It's like a domino effect.
Is this even allowed to changed with current restrictions on in season development?
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Dec 2021, 15:49
by dans79
One and Only wrote: ↑14 Dec 2021, 14:49
PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑11 Dec 2021, 01:55
rogazilla wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 16:45
That part I get. It is the 'drive harder' part that makes no sense to me. Since the rev range doesn't change, the only difference would be increase compression? If the spec is locked, and I imagine the CR is already very high, how would you achieve that?
What's the consequences of higher CR? does it change the exhaust to that drives the turbo? If the ICE is more efficient then less heat to recover from MGU-H right? Less MGU-H then less flow between ES and MGU-H?
That's the part I am not understanding.
The energy to and from the energy store has gone past limit returns. You are literally limited by regulations.
The heat input into the MGUH is unlimited however.
If your ICE can operate in away to make the same power while pumping more air, you will have way more energy to the MGUH. Alternatively if you can squeeze more energy from the fuel into the air you can extract more mechanical power to the pitsons and loose less to the cylinder walls.
This is very achieveable if detonation, and also lean flame stability can be controls because you see these engines are still detonation limited and are on the limit of running lean. New fuel formumations, new injections strategies,
new piston and liner materials and shapes.. Lower friction parts.. Etc. All of these give more ICE power and /or you can run the engine harder for longer. It's like a domino effect.
Is this even allowed to changed with current restrictions on in season development?
If it can be seen as a reliability update it can. For example the latest merc ice was supposedly several hundred grams heavier. Thus it's safe to assume something got beefed up.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Dec 2021, 16:49
by Baulz
I am sure I read somewhere this year that they had issues with the strength of the block and with that fixed they were able to push the later engines harder.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Dec 2021, 17:36
by dans79
Baulz wrote: ↑14 Dec 2021, 16:49
I am sure I read somewhere this year that they had issues with the strength of the block and with that fixed they were able to push the later engines harder.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... RzRnl.html
Hamilton took his fifth internal combustion engine of the season at Interlagos. As is well known, Mercedes have been carrying a reliability issue with its power units during the second half of the season, believed to centre around a materials batch issue, with cracks developing around components in the bottom end of the engine.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 14 Dec 2021, 17:58
by Baulz
Thanks, glad to know I did not just imagine that!
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 08:22
by w1Y
Is it likely that merc will be able to reduce the performance bleed over the life of the PU.
If they can fix this and get to high levels of reliability the PU is going to be yet again a step above the rest?
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 08:56
by _cerber1
It should be noted the incredible reliability of the hybrid component of the Mercedes engines. Hamilton finished the season with 3 MGU-H and MGU-K, Ricciardo and Stroll with 2 MGU-K.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 10:38
by Spoutnik
What's the point of keeping on the 2nd MGU-K with a lot of mileage instead of using a "free" 3rd ?
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 14:55
by dans79
I think part of the reliability issues for Merc has to do with the ICE already being optimized for running E10 next year!
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 18:00
by Mattyw
You've got to assume RB will come out with the stronger PU having nicked a number of the merc engine staff this year
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 18:32
by Hoffman900
Mattyw wrote: ↑17 Dec 2021, 18:00
You've got to assume RB will come out with the stronger PU having nicked a number of the merc engine staff this year
Any heavy hitters from the design side? I thought they were mainly going after manufacturing type skillsets.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 18:53
by dans79
Mattyw wrote: ↑17 Dec 2021, 18:00
You've got to assume RB will come out with the stronger PU having nicked a number of the merc engine staff this year
The engines are frozen starting next year, so to make the engine more powerful a change has to be disguised as a reliability upgrade! Additionally most of the staff RB acquired where on the manufacturing side, not the design/engineering side, and are on gardening leave.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... xcZUm.html
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 19:16
by NL_Fer
Spoutnik wrote: ↑17 Dec 2021, 10:38
What's the point of keeping on the 2nd MGU-K with a lot of mileage instead of using a "free" 3rd ?
Probably the new K has to be fitted at the factory, as it is a precision job. the ICE TC K & H are shipped together as one assembly. So the built the 3rd and 4th assembly recycling the old K of the 1st and 2nd ICE.
Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software
Posted: 17 Dec 2021, 19:25
by NL_Fer
rogazilla wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 16:45
dans79 wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 16:28
rogazilla wrote: ↑08 Dec 2021, 16:08
So how do you DRIVE the ICE harder in a sense and be able to sustain that power as a PU lap after lap? You have to charge the battery at some point right?
The flow between the ES and the MGU-H is unlimited. Thus if the ICE can withstand the extra wear and heat degradation, it can be pushed harder by recovering from and deploying to the MGU-H more aggressively!
That part I get. It is the 'drive harder' part that makes no sense to me. Since the rev range doesn't change, the only difference would be increase compression? If the spec is locked, and I imagine the CR is already very high, how would you achieve that?
What's the consequences of higher CR? does it change the exhaust to that drives the turbo? If the ICE is more efficient then less heat to recover from MGU-H right? Less MGU-H then less flow between ES and MGU-H?
That's the part I am not understanding.
If you want more energy, most straightforward is to increase the hot airflow in exhaust and turbocharger. More airflow, means more energy for the MGU-H to recover. More energy to charge the ES, more energy to deploy with the MGU-K.
To increase the airflow AND keep it hot air, the combustion itself has to be more agressive, extract the maximum of energy out of each drop of the injected fuel. This is done by increasing the compression and advance the ignition, maybe increase the fuel the jet-ignition uses. This wil result in more shocking or knocking wearing down the cilinder and piston.