F1technical.net

And y'all think/believe that F1 runs gas you can buy at your local pump.

PlatinumZealot wrote:In my opinion this 50% is not achieved at full power because that would mean they have already reached the 1000hp mark (With battery assist) and 844 hp with the ICE.

50% is 831 hp (or 844 if you like) but that includes MGUH output. If we say MGUH is making 100 hp, the crankshaft power is 844 - 100 = 744. The most we can get to the wheels is another 160 (MGUH limit) for a total of 904.

strad wrote:And y'all think/believe that F1 runs gas you can buy at your local pump.

I don't think anyone thinks or believes that. I've never actually heard anyone in F1 even call it Petrol/Gasoline its always "Fuel" which even to the laymen I know means "not normal petrol"

I believe Andy Cowell's words were "closer to 50% than 40%", which is not 50%. Could equally be 45.1%.

gruntguru wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote:In my opinion this 50% is not achieved at full power because that would mean they have already reached the 1000hp mark (With battery assist) and 844 hp with the ICE.

50% is 831 hp (or 844 if you like) but that includes MGUH output. If we say MGUH is making 100 hp, the crankshaft power is 844 - 100 = 744. The most we can get to the wheels is another 160 (MGUH limit) for a total of 904.

What? The only time MGU-H contributes to power output is during qualifying when they run free load system. Even then it's effect is indirect by reduced back pressure.

Juzh wrote:

gruntguru wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote:In my opinion this 50% is not achieved at full power because that would mean they have already reached the 1000hp mark (With battery assist) and 844 hp with the ICE.

50% is 831 hp (or 844 if you like) but that includes MGUH output. If we say MGUH is making 100 hp, the crankshaft power is 844 - 100 = 744. The most we can get to the wheels is another 160 (MGUH limit) for a total of 904.

What? The only time MGU-H contributes to power output is during qualifying when they run free load system. Even then it's effect is indirect by reduced back pressure.

It should be obvious that he's talking about the system running in a self sustaining mode where the MGU-H output is sent to the MGU-K with no assistance from the ERS.

Well, he did say 160 (MGUH) to the wheels. Got me confused.

gruntguru wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote:In my opinion this 50% is not achieved at full power because that would mean they have already reached the 1000hp mark (With battery assist) and 844 hp with the ICE.

50% is 831 hp (or 844 if you like) but that includes MGUH output. If we say MGUH is making 100 hp, the crankshaft power is 844 - 100 = 744. The most we can get to the wheels is another 160 (MGUH limit) for a total of 904.

Yes, that's right. I forgot about that. (MGUH and Battery together can only channel 160hp through the MGUK). So my calculations overestimate the horsepower a bit. I must have wrote that after work.

Taking a second look.
Maximum efficiency mode assuming 50% of 1240kW:
831hp.

Maximum power mode:
MGUH is switched to motor mode but back pressure is reduced resulting in 30hp increased ICE power: 831hp -100hp + 30hp = 761hp
Battery is also used to provide the full 160hp to the MGUK: 761hp + 160hp = 922hp???

strad wrote:And y'all think/believe that F1 runs gas you can buy at your local pump.

I don't think anyone thought or believed that.

Pierce89 wrote:

strad wrote:And y'all think/believe that F1 runs gas you can buy at your local pump.

I don't think anyone thought or believed that.

for the benefit of any recent converts to this site ? .....

from 1958 to 2013 F1 fuel was limited in Octane Number (notionally to the ON of best road fuel)
late in this period (because of the very high rpm) N/A F1 didn't use the max permitted ON anyway

now there is no (upper) ON limit
though, interestingly, there is a minimum ON limit of 75

PlatinumZealot wrote: MGUH is switched to motor mode but back pressure is reduced resulting in 30hp increased ICE power: 831hp -100hp + 30hp = 761hp
Battery is also used to provide the full 160hp to the MGUK: 761hp + 160hp = 922hp???

For the 100000th time:
MGUH in generator mode DOES NOT have a negative impact on power output AS LONG as you have energy stored in ES. Only once this energy has been fully used up will those ~-100bhp come into effect. At that point it would be pointless to run free load system as power loss from lack of mgu-h recovery will be far greater than what you gain from reduced back pressure.

I have a couple of issues with this discussion. Cowell's interview was unclear about the 50% thermal efficiency. The don't know if this was the fault of the interviewer or was Cowell being particularly obtuse. It seems that posters are assuming that 50% efficiency is the ICE and the Turbine compounding of the MGU-HEAT.
The battery store CANNOT be included in the efficiency although it can be included in the max output.

Juzh wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote: MGUH is switched to motor mode but back pressure is reduced resulting in 30hp increased ICE power: 831hp -100hp + 30hp = 761hp
Battery is also used to provide the full 160hp to the MGUK: 761hp + 160hp = 922hp???

For the 100000th time:
MGUH in generator mode DOES NOT have a negative impact on power output AS LONG as you have energy stored in ES. Only once this energy has been fully used up will those ~-100bhp come into effect. At that point it would be pointless to run free load system as power loss from lack of mgu-h recovery will be far greater than what you gain from reduced back pressure.

So long as the exhaust passes through the turbine then there will be ICE power loss because of the increased back pressure. I think your view of the energy deployment is too simplistic, it's unlikely you would deploy from the battery at full until you run out of energy.

Petroltorque wrote:I have a couple of issues with this discussion. Cowell's interview was unclear about the 50% thermal efficiency. The don't know if this was the fault of the interviewer or was Cowell being particularly obtuse. It seems that posters are assuming that 50% efficiency is the ICE and the Turbine compounding of the MGU-HEAT.
The battery store CANNOT be included in the efficiency although it can be included in the max output.

The MGU-H is allowed to send power directly to the MGU-K so it's perfectly valid to take the compounded output. Even if it couldn't, it's still valid to use the compounded output so long as the energy out of the battery balances with the energy input.

Cold Fussion wrote:

Juzh wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote: MGUH is switched to motor mode but back pressure is reduced resulting in 30hp increased ICE power: 831hp -100hp + 30hp = 761hp
Battery is also used to provide the full 160hp to the MGUK: 761hp + 160hp = 922hp???

For the 100000th time:
MGUH in generator mode DOES NOT have a negative impact on power output AS LONG as you have energy stored in ES. Only once this energy has been fully used up will those ~-100bhp come into effect. At that point it would be pointless to run free load system as power loss from lack of mgu-h recovery will be far greater than what you gain from reduced back pressure.

So long as the exhaust passes through the turbine then there will be ICE power loss because of the increased back pressure. I think your view of the energy deployment is too simplistic, it's unlikely you would deploy from the battery at full until you run out of energy.

My mistake. I meant MGUH in motor mode. Not sure why I typed generator
Anyway. Powering turbo solely from mgu-h without exhaust gases assistance allows you to open the wastegates and bypass the turbine which results in decreased back pressure.
You wouldn't ofcourse run the battery dry, I was just explaining it in simple terms. Overall energy management is very complex.
Newey explains it here:
https://youtu.be/bEDQ6mRKz70?t=11m56s

Juzh wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote: MGUH is switched to motor mode but back pressure is reduced resulting in 30hp increased ICE power: 831hp -100hp + 30hp = 761hp
Battery is also used to provide the full 160hp to the MGUK: 761hp + 160hp = 922hp???

For the 100000th time:
MGUH in generator mode DOES NOT have a negative impact on power output AS LONG as you have energy stored in ES. Only once this energy has been fully used up will those ~-100bhp come into effect. At that point it would be pointless to run free load system as power loss from lack of mgu-h recovery will be far greater than what you gain from reduced back pressure.

Tell that to Adrian Newey who CONFIRMED on Ted's notebook that the turbines run free-load in qualifying. Did you see the video? What do you have to say then?