F1technical.net

Now I finally understand how the air was channelled thru that camembert box-shaped airbox (purple) to the compressor, in the RS 2014-2021 PUs, and how it contoured the MGUH (blue) shaft that went to turbo. It went thru the sides of that green device.
Mystery solved.
https://fr.media.renaultgroup.com/actua ... e3532.html

Interesting. So that's how they can run the MGU-H shaft through the compressor. This solution seems to have more flow losses than the split turbo. The old solution has a boundary layer on the outer diameter and the inner diameters. With the new split turbo layout, there is only the boundary layer on the outer diameter of the compressor inlet piping. There is probably a consequential benefit there.

AR3-GP wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2022, 20:42

Interesting. So that's how they can run the MGU-H shaft through the compressor. This solution seems to have more flow losses than the split turbo. The old solution has a boundary layer on the outer diameter and the inner diameters. With the new split turbo layout, there is only the boundary layer on the outer diameter of the compressor inlet piping. There is probably a consequential benefit there.

Shows how little they had to change to get to the split turbo. The axle was already there and likely long enough. They just removed the compressor from the back, shifted the turbine forward the distance of the now absent compressor and connected it to the compressor on the front onto the same axle.

Overnight job in the shed.

gruntguru wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2022, 23:38

Overnight job in the shed.

ROFL

I agree, same with the images in the Ferrari thread; these non-split types already have a turboshaft-MGU assembly as long as the engine block. The option was always available to them, it would seem. Even with these, they still fit in variable guide vanes.

gruntguru wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2022, 23:38

Overnight job in the shed.

Or overnight parts from Japan.

AR3-GP wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2022, 20:42

Interesting. So that's how they can run the MGU-H shaft through the compressor. This solution seems to have more flow losses than the split turbo. The old solution has a boundary layer on the outer diameter and the inner diameters. With the new split turbo layout, there is only the boundary layer on the outer diameter of the compressor inlet piping. There is probably a consequential benefit there.

You know. The design of that inlet makes a lot of sense if you think about flow losses. You can't compare it to a pipe bend really. The entry is split into sectors that take air from the circumference and not from the centre line. On the circumference has a bigger cross section, thus its a lower air speed before it gradually accelerates to the middle so less turblulent losses.
It's smart. I have seen this design before though. Smart way to get around a tight bend.

I wonder if Ferrari is using this?

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

06 Apr 2022, 15:31

AR3-GP wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2022, 20:42

Interesting. So that's how they can run the MGU-H shaft through the compressor. This solution seems to have more flow losses than the split turbo. The old solution has a boundary layer on the outer diameter and the inner diameters. With the new split turbo layout, there is only the boundary layer on the outer diameter of the compressor inlet piping. There is probably a consequential benefit there.

You know. The design of that inlet makes a lot of sense if you think about flow losses. You can't compare it to a pipe bend really. The entry is split into sectors that take air from the circumference and not from the centre line. On the circumference has a bigger cross section, thus its a lower air speed before it gradually accelerates to the middle so less turblulent losses.
It's smart. I have seen this design before though. Smart way to get around a tight bend.

I wonder if Ferrari is using this?

Yeah and the split turbo may have theexact same design just on the other side.


The way it was explained to me in this forum last year was it wasn't so much as flow losses but a packaging thing. The rear compressor config has the air traverse the ICE to get to the compressor, then out to the rad in side pod(in front of the PU) and then back to the intake. While with the Split turbo, everything is there at the front of the PU.


There are pictures of that I've see on the Ferrari F1-75, think that's where I saw them. You clearily see all the extra piping they need. Which is kind of ironic considering all the space these new cars have "under the hood".

PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑

06 Apr 2022, 15:31

AR3-GP wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2022, 20:42

Interesting. So that's how they can run the MGU-H shaft through the compressor. This solution seems to have more flow losses than the split turbo. The old solution has a boundary layer on the outer diameter and the inner diameters. With the new split turbo layout, there is only the boundary layer on the outer diameter of the compressor inlet piping. There is probably a consequential benefit there.

You know. The design of that inlet makes a lot of sense if you think about flow losses. You can't compare it to a pipe bend really. The entry is split into sectors that take air from the circumference and not from the centre line. On the circumference has a bigger cross section, thus its a lower air speed before it gradually accelerates to the middle so less turblulent losses.
It's smart. I have seen this design before though. Smart way to get around a tight bend.

I wonder if Ferrari is using this?

I wasn't referring to losses due to a bend. I was referring to losses due to the secondary wall of the annulus design. Pipe flow losses come from walls. There are two walls in the annulus design of the non-split turbo.

For what it's worth, I don't know anything about turbo design. I just see two walls vs 1 wall contributing to the flow losses on the compressor intake piping. Maybe the annulus design has other considerations that improves the flow inside the turbo. They may well still use the annulus intake for their split turbo design even though it would fundamentally not require one for the lack of an MGU-H shaft needing to pass through.

The number of walls won't make a big difference if they are far apart relative to the speed of the flow.

I apologize for not being able to find the source from when I originally read it, but in one of Rossi's more recent interviews, he states that the team think they are 10hp down on the best PU (presumably Ferrari)

AR3-GP wrote: ↑

15 Apr 2022, 19:26

I apologize for not being able to find the source from when I originally read it, but in one of Rossi's more recent interviews, he states that the team think they are 10hp down on the best PU (presumably Ferrari)

I said this over on the teams thread, this was a comment from Otmar, that was more of a comment that the PU is no excuse...we can compete. Than it was a factual we're down 10 HP from the best.

AR3-GP wrote: ↑

05 Apr 2022, 20:42

Interesting. So that's how they can run the MGU-H shaft through the compressor. This solution seems to have more flow losses than the split turbo. The old solution has a boundary layer on the outer diameter and the inner diameters. With the new split turbo layout, there is only the boundary layer on the outer diameter of the compressor inlet piping. There is probably a consequential benefit there.

And viewtopic.php?p=954073#p954073

It turns out Renault already used an intercooler placed just in front of the engine, like in 2022, and thus 46 years ago (first air-air, then water-air). So Renault didnt copy this neat layout in '22 from Mercedes or Ferrari, Viry copied it from Viry
I didnt know that
It was in Renaults first F1, the RS01, which was based on... the Alpine A500




And both inherited it from the Le Mans Alpines


Scratchbuilt model by Builtupmodels https://builtupmodels.fr


Before going for a twin-turbo

Wow that's very cool stuff