F1technical.net

being compressed to 500 bar will make the fuel hot anyway ?

PlatinumZealot wrote:

GoranF1 wrote:I'am told 30Bhp from AUS software update is quite conservative number.

Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.

No doubt they have spent a heap of their tokens already. Holding only a few to use during the season.

And no doubt the other manufacturers have done the same (Mercedes and Ferrari used their last tokens - 7 and 4 respectively - last season in preparation for this season).

Well, until you actually homologate a power unit, you don't spend any tokens. There's only so many tokens they could use up regarding the things they changed, I'd say they probably still have about half of their tokens.

godlameroso wrote:Well, until you actually homologate a power unit, you don't spend any tokens. There's only so many tokens they could use up regarding the things they changed, I'd say they probably still have about half of their tokens.

There are 32 tokens to be used from the end of last season to the end of this season.

I would think that more than half the tokens have been spent by Honda. They had a lot of work to do on the power unit.

Don't forget that Honda had 3 free tokens to change Turbo due to their old wastegate design

Only 3?

ME4ME wrote:

GoranF1 wrote:

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.

yes ,but there are people in Japan who think Eric's 30hp claim is a bit conservative....

30hp sounds way to high to me. I mean, what software did they use before, something that a drunken trainee had written? I can see there always being room for improvement, but the Honda guys aren't stupid. They would have gotten the programming at least decent in 2015. I'm sceptical, but lets see in Melbourne.

The software for these Power Units is quite complex, If you don't have a reliable Power Unit then that makes the task of writing that software even harder. 30bhp is achievable through software and fuels. I don't know if they'll get anymore than that out of it. Also you can't rule out data errors costing Honda on the software side of things either, meaning all the maps etc would be more or less useless.

hemichromis wrote:The secret is the combustion, Mercedes are using spark-free combustion.

This as described on this forum by (much) smarter people than I, is far more efficient.

That would mean they've taken the principles of diesel engines spark free ignition and adapted
it to petrol for a more efficient and controllable ignition. Could be a load of hogwash though.
Probably won't know for a long while what exactly Mercedes have done, unless it leaks.

This is pure speculation. Might be true, might not. It isn't limited to Mercedes either, Ferrari is rumored to strive to do the same.

As with most stories about PU's, you have to err on the side of caution as to things being true or not.

ME4ME wrote: 30hp sounds way to high to me. I mean, what software did they use before, something that a drunken trainee had written? I can see there always being room for improvement, but the Honda guys aren't stupid. They would have gotten the programming at least decent in 2015. I'm sceptical, but lets see in Melbourne.

For even a turbo street car 30hp can be had even from a previous tune that was thought to be optimal. Remember they have another step in the fuel. I think it is very plausible from where the engine is coming from.

hemichromis wrote:
The secret is the combustion, Mercedes are using spark-free combustion.

Definitely not according to what I've seen, so I'm going to ask for a source and also since when has this been the case?

Well, Mercedes had its own Diesotto engine concept, and they said that they harvested lot of ideas from their truck division...

Maybe they created an injector nozzle/glowplug combo?

So just putting 2 and 2 together to make 497,803.

They aren't running sparklers, I'm pretty sure of that.

Facts Only wrote:

hemichromis wrote:
The secret is the combustion, Mercedes are using spark-free combustion.

Definitely not according to what I've seen, so I'm going to ask for a source and also since when has this been the case?

However unlikely, it is plausible for an SI engine to migrate to diesel mode. Top fuel is a good, but extreme, example as they spend the last half of their run in diesel mode as the spark plugs have burnt away.

Tommy Cookers wrote:being compressed to 500 bar will make the fuel hot anyway ?

Will only raise the temperature slightly. Not much energy required to compress a liquid. I will see if I can find some thermodynamic tables for compressed liquid hydrocarbons.

EDIT. About 0.7 degree C. See post 2/3 down page 218.

If Honda reveals that is has used less than 15 tokens at Melbourne, then there is a high possibility that we may say a larger and more powerful engine courtesy of Skunkworks team making its debut mid season.

On the other hand, if the actual usage is around 20 tokens, it would debunk all Skunkworks story.

damager21 wrote:If Honda reveals that is has used less than 15 tokens at Melbourne, then there is a high possibility that we may say a larger and more powerful engine courtesy of Skunkworks team making its debut mid season.

On the other hand, if the actual usage is around 20 tokens, it would debunk all Skunkworks story.

The 'Skunkworks' term has always seemed a little silly to me.
I'm almost certain that there are teams coming up with different solutions for the PU.
It just makes sense for a company that is having trouble and is willing to throw vast resources into finding solutions will explore every possible way of finding those solutions.
I believe Mr Wazari alluded to 3 groups working toward a solution.

I would be surprised if other teams are not doing the same thing bar Mercedes who seem to have found the perfect solution from the get go.

This makes sense all the more now that we have free engine development from next year.

I do like your token idea, it makes a lot of sense.