F1technical.net

My post was more for whom would be in ultimate control of the cars path (or planes flight path). Granted they are using completely separate technologies to do this (computer vision vs. pre-programmed operating parameter lookups), but the philosophy of ultimate control has already been passed to computer in the case of aviation (airbus specific). And just to be clear I am not talking about autopilot. I'm talking about the pilot moves his control stick and the computer gets to determine if it will allow such action or not. Just like an AV might block the steering or throttle inputs of the driver. There is heated debate in the industry and at the pilot level about which system is better, Airbus vs. Boeing systems, and each are basically doing it how they want. My view is they both have some merit and most of the debate would be gone if they would just install a button which was labeled 'manual override'

My point being is I don't want to see AV's go down this road of ultimate authority going to the computer because as you've essentially pointed out before - computers don't make mistakes, but their programmers most certainly do.

Phil wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2018, 13:58

The roads are getting more dangerous as a result of increasing density and distractions. Laws and education must adapt too (which to a large part it hasnt or not adequately).

The UK's roads are as safe as they ever have been, to be fair. Fewer than 1800 deaths per year for several years now, injuries dropping too. Scandinavian countries are about the best.

Laws and education also require enforcement to back them up. That requires government investment etc.

In the case of airplanes, as I said, it's different because some planes are an inherently "unstable" object in the sky and require computer aided assistance to fly. I'm assuming you mean this.

no Phil - all airliners are aerodynamically stable
and remember the FCS is 'autopiloting' from just after takeoff until just before touchdown
including autopilot go-rounds from aborted landings
pilots command the autopilot in its various modes but suffer its quirks and faults that vary from mode to mode

dead pilots tell no tales
and those who prevail against the FCS's regular attempts to kill tell very few tales - this is what pilots are paid for
and the authorities always decide that more 'training' is needed - to work around the FCS 'limitations'
but motorists aren't paid to keep quiet

one eg 40 years ago several Tornados were heavily damaged on landing
because the computerised FCS reversed the pitch control laws when pilots made multiple pitch control inputs in flare
reversed them because the FCS geeks had decided that such pilots must have failed to contain a pitch oscillation
like a car system deciding if LH makes multiple stabs of opposite lock his steering should be changed to left-for-right

nothing has changed
a recent Airbus cut the rudder control by 50% when the aircraft was on the ground
but touching one wheel momentarily left pilots trying to land not knowing rudder control had gone from 100% to 50%
and the new 737 has problems

btw someone big in surgery training says today's trainee surgeons can't cut or sew (ie but are computer-savvy)

My bad - i was thinking of fighter jets (i.e. Eurofighter) and mistakenly thought that some of the more modern airliners had similar 'reasons' for their priority of handling computer over pilot.

Fly-by-wire (or drive-by-wire) is a wonderful thing with immense possibilities, but can also have serious consequences of course. I think the above proves the point quite nicely.

This is where this whole development is counter-productive. The AV idea obviously comes out from wanting the roads to be a safer place. Yet by developing driver aids, we are directly encouraging drivers who are now more and more relying on these automatism's and driver aids (that will eventually progress to autonomous vehicles) to rely more on the tech rather than their own instincts and ability. In other words; We are encouraging less attention while driving, because there's a driver assistance module that will "jump in" warn and supposedly save the day. Until it doesn't.

A friend of mine's parking sensor was broken/blocked. Guess what happened? Drove right into the pillar of an underground parking in reverse. Extensive damage. Thanks to all these gadgets, people are becoming more and more reliant on them, to the point they fully trust it and are hopelessly inapt to doing it how they once learned it when they learned how to drive. Same applies to all other gadgets that are finding their way into modern cars.

I can already see the first big accidents coming with semi assisted AVs when people will be reading newspapers while on their commute to work, only to crash because the car overlooked something obvious to the human-eye/brain, but not the AV.

I get the point that the tech will not evolve over night, but it is scary to think how all the effort being sunk into this kind of tech only really makes us more muted as we give up our responsibilities to a piece of software.

EXACTLY
That's the point I was trying to make earlier. As we give the car more and more responsibility we dodge our own responsibilities and even forget how to drive.
.
And all this is part of the point I tried to get across as well.
We are trying to dodge all responsibility not just driving.
We need some one else to pick our hotel. An "app" to find the cheapest insurance. Note that's the cheapest not necessarily the best just the cheapest. To choose our style of clothing. Hell we need a site to find us a mate.
To drive for us is just the latest in a long list.
I have a friend who told me his children have never driven a manual transmission car.
Why? Because the driving school used automatics. Driving school??? We can't even take on the responsibility of teaching our kids to drive. No wonder the roads are crowded with incompetents. I've seen those so called schools. All they teach is how to keep the car between the white lines, how to get through a fast food drive thru and how to pass the test.
We are passing on all our traditional responsibilities so when we get something we don't like we can blame the "app" or whoever made our decisions for us. I don't know which is worse the dating app or the one that picks and deals for a car for us.

Just like an AV might block the steering or throttle inputs of the driver

We already have something like that with modern cars that apply brakes at a given corner of the car to "aid" us in negotiating a corner.
I have had once in the Caddy where it did help but 3 or 4 times where it tried to wreck me.
Think back the HHF taking reporters for a hot lap in a Mercedes at INDY and spun off at turn2 or 3 and the first thing out of his mouth was "that was the car not me".
It's little electronic brain didn't/doesn't allow that you know what and are doing what you want to do. Tries to out think the driver. Sometimes you want power oversteer for example or to drift the car.
Modern cars would wreck Nuvolari at every corner.

Fortunately autonomous cars taking us away from driving will intercept with the growing misery of driving on public roads; the roads are already being neutered by proliferation of speed and red light cameras, insurance companies mandating 24/7 GPS tracking and dashcams, low speed limits and over-crowding. Who would really want to drive anywhere but on a private track?

We should accept autonomous cars and make sure good new tracks are built for the future where we can drive our classic road and modern race cars.

All I keep seeing in this thread is the assumption that humans will always be significantly better at driving than an AV because humans can all drive at the same awesome level, yet we can't park a car without crashing it if a sensor fails…
Which is it? It's time for you guys to make up your minds.
While I firmly believe that humans are indeed awesome, we obviously have our flaws. Driving, looking at the skill level of the entire population as a whole, is not our strong suit...

The only reason the road toll diminishes every year is due to more stringent regulation, whether that be driving standards or safety standards. Improving driver skill level is not even considered. The most significant safety regulation imposed on humans would have to be the massive increase in drug and alcohol testing, all other improvements are simply driver aids to help cover up our incompetence.
From brake lights to seatbelts to airbags to speed limits to lane departure warnings.., all of these things are there because humans control cars, and make mistakes constantly, and generally refuse to strictly adhere to the rules. Sure, there is tacit agreement amongst humanity that 'I won't unexpectedly swerve my car into oncoming traffic' and vice versa, but that is down to a calculation of mortality and almost certain death. I think it was Ralph Nader who once suggested, for safety, every car should be fitted with an enormous steering wheel spike rather than a drivers airbag. His point being that the main driver of safety in any human controlled vehicle is a constant reminder of our own mortality. I assume strad will agree on this?

Back to AV's. Whether or not we agree on the question of 'will computers ever have enough power, sensors, sentience, whatever.., to take the place of a human for driving', (just for argument, let's assume they will) surely there must be agreeance on the safety aspects of removing a human from the control of a car?

strad wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2018, 22:18

Sometimes you want power oversteer for example or to drift the car.

Uh, not on a public road I don't. And for those who think power sliding around the streets is ok, modern cars generally have a button to disable stability control. It's intended for use in particular situations, but I guess you can use it lay down rubber if you like.

Jeeeez
I am not talking about for fun!!!!!!
There are times when inducing power oversteer is the correct way to counter adverse conditions. Any one that can't use their throttle when necessary to control their car should not be driving.
In my Cadillac driver assist was on any time you didn't turn it off.
Is that really what you think? That I'm some kid doing donuts?
You ever drive on ice?
Are you being argumentative or obtuse or just kidding?

strad wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2018, 02:54

Jeeeez
I am not talking about for fun!!!!!!
There are times when inducing power oversteer is the correct way to counter adverse conditions. Any one that can't use their throttle when necessary to control their car should not be driving.
In my Cadillac driver assist was on any time you didn't turn it off.
Is that really what you think? That I'm some kid doing donuts?
You ever drive on ice?
Are you being argumentative or obtuse or just kidding?

Are you actually suggesting that only a human can tackle adverse conditions? Here's an obtuse one. What about if a meteor filled with super AIDs is heading towards your car. An Av might spot it and take evasive action...

AJI wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2018, 03:02

What about if a meteor filled with super AIDs is heading towards your car.

I’d say that’s enough bad luck to just admit your time is up!

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2018, 01:11

strad wrote: ↑

01 Nov 2018, 22:18

Sometimes you want power oversteer for example or to drift the car.

Uh, not on a public road I don't. And for those who think power sliding around the streets is ok, modern cars generally have a button to disable stability control. It's intended for use in particular situations, but I guess you can use it lay down rubber if you like.

You know, you may be onto something here. Perhaps the whole thing needs rethinking.

Rather than considering the safety of a car traveling at 50-80 mph, 25 mph is far more achievable as is stopping in a very short distance.

Don't scowl and say 25 mph, I could bloody well walk faster, the average speed of traffic in London in 2012 was 19.3 mph, (1), New York 4.7 (2), Tokyo 16.1, (3), so with automation removing much of the time the vehicle is stationary, it is quite feasible.



1 https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... ./475296/-
Forbs says 11mph though. Depending on where they put city limits.
2 www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-new-york-t ... story.html
3 https://www.bandwidthplace.com/location/japan/

strad wrote: ↑

02 Nov 2018, 02:54

You ever drive on ice?

As stated, the systems usually have a button to allow one to disable them for particular situations. Driving on snow/ice where the system might be a hindrance is one such situation.

For day to day driving, DSC systems are a plus point for the majority of road users.

I assume you're against the inclusion of ABS in cars too?